Exegeting Genesis 1:1-2

[Marshall Janzen]

Now see if I were on your side, I would refrain from using this argument as a prooftext. It's an argument from silence. I would never used Gen. 1:2 to argue for or against ex nihilo.

Right, as long as we understand that the purpose of the account isn't to reveal the original creation of matter. I agree, it's an argument from silence. The account doesn't speak for or against creation ex nihilo because that is not one of the points it is speaking about. Just because the account starts with waters doesn't mean the waters are uncreated, but it does mean that the account doesn't tell us where the waters came from.

Actually Genesis 1 as in chapter 1, does address this. In the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. That is everything. Thats the biblical way of summing up the world.

I'm not sure how that works if Genesis 1:1 is a summary/title. If it is, then what it means by creating the heavens and the earth is what the rest of the account details, not some initial creation of everything followed by what the rest of the account details.

 

[Calminian]

Right, as long as we understand that the purpose of the account isn't to reveal the original creation of matter.....

I said arguing from only Gen. 1:2 for or against ex nihilo is an argument from silence. You agree with that?

I'm not sure how that works if Genesis 1:1 is a summary/title. If it is, then what it means by creating the heavens and the earth is what the rest of the account details, not some initial creation of everything followed by what the rest of the account details.

Creation of everything? No, God did not create Himself, so it can't be the creation of everything. But it is the creation of the heavens and the earth.

I have no idea what part of this you're stumbling on.

 

[Marshall Janzen]

I said arguing from only Gen. 1:2 for or against ex nihilo is an argument from silence. You agree with that?

It would depend on how one interpreted Genesis 1:1, so yes, from 1:2 alone it would be an argument from silence.

Creation of everything? No, God did not create Himself, so it can't be the creation of everything. But it is the creation of the heavens and the earth.

Right, Genesis 1 doesn't tell us about the creation of everything. It doesn't even tell us about the creation of everything that God created. It starts with waters in 1:2, and if you read 1:1 as a title/summary, and treat the rest of the account as chronological, that means it doesn't say how or even whether God created those waters. It also doesn't describe the creation of the seas out of nothing. The seas are created by separating those waters that are already there.

But this is no problem, since this isn't the purpose of Genesis 1. If we had any doubt over whether there was anything (apart from God) that God did not create, Paul gives a clear answer:

"He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together" (Col. 1:15-17, NRSV).

So, if I wanted to demonstrate biblically that God created everything (that is not God), I would go to Colossians which is clear on that topic, rather than Genesis 1 which does not directly address it.

 

[Calminian]

It would depend on how one interpreted Genesis 1:1, so yes, from 1:2 alone it would be an argument from silence.

Marshall you're all over the place. You keep going back and forth. I'm not able to follow your arguments or even what you're arguing about. Maybe someone else can understand what you're saying. I generally get peoples arguments even when I don't agree, but this one's baffling. I'm going to move on.

 

[Calminian]

Response part II

......This word, 'bara' is vital to understanding the creation account, used only three times in Genesis 1, it's used only of God (Gen. 1:1, 21, 27).

CREATE: bara' (baw-raw) "to create, make." This verb is of profound theological significance, since it has only God as its subject. Only God can "create" in the sense implied by bara'. The verb expresses creation out of nothing, an idea seen clearly in passages having to do with creation on a cosmic scale: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen. 1:1; cf. Gen. 2:3; Isa. 40:26; 42:5). All other verbs for "creating" allow a much broader range of meaning; they have both divine and human subjects, and are used in contexts where bringing something or someone into existence is not the issue. Bara is frequently found in parallel to these other verbs, such as 'asah, "to make" (Isa. 41:20; 43:7; 45:7, 12; Amos 4:13), yasar, "to form" (Isa. 43:1, 7; 45:7; Amos 4:13), and kun, "to establish." A verse that illustrates all of these words together is Isa. 45:18: "For thus saith the Lord that created [bara] the heavens; God himself that formed [yasar] the earth and made [asah] it; he hath established [kun] it, he created [bara] it not in vain, he formed [yasar] it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else." A careful study of the passages where bara occurs shows that in the few nonpoetic uses (primarily in Genesis), the writer uses scientifically precise language to demonstrate that God brought the object or concept into being from previously nonexistent material. Especially striking is the use of bara in Isaiah 40-65. Out of 49 occurences of the verb in the Old Testament, 20 are in these chapters. Because Isaiah writes prophetically to the Jews in Exile, he speaks words of comfort based upon God's past benefits and blessings to His people. Isaiah especially wants to show that, since Yahweh (God's literal name) is the Creator, He is able to deliver His people from captivity. The God of Israel has created all things: "I have made [asah] the earth, and created [bara] man upon it: I, even, my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded" (Isa. 45:12). Though a precisely correct technical term to suggest cosmic, material creation from nothing, bara is a rich theological vehicle for communicating the sovereign power of God, who originates and regulates all things to His glory. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Vine, Unger, White)​

We don't have any disputes here. Genesis 1:1 establishes an ex nihilo creation. It's explicit.

I'm still pondering what kind of fluids they would be if not just plain water. No doubt, their composition changed somewhat.

This part is mere speculation on my part. What the text is telling me is that the land was made from this fluid. Can God make land out of actual H2O? Obviously that's not a problem for him. He can make wine or land out of water. I'm just speculating that this formless fluid need not be H2O per modern nomenclature.

What I'm veering away from is the idea that land was already made and formed under the water and then merely surfaced somehow. If the earth (erets - land) was formless and void, that doesn't fit.

An interesting exposition, some pretty good cross referencing, an insightful paraphrase and a pretty good discussion of the Canopy Theory. It does fall short of being an exegetical treatment of the text but we can take it to that level if you really want to go there.

The exegesis will be the thread as a whole, Lord willing.

Let me recap, just to be clear on what I'm proposing. I'm saying verse 1 is a summary statement of the creation of both heaven and earth which explicitly is ex nihilo. Verse 2-8 is the detailed creation of heaven and all the various steps it entailed. Verses 9-10 is the detailed creation of the earth and sea (i.e. land and sea). The populating of these newly created earth and heavens starts with verse 11.

I'm curious if you'll at least agree with me on verses 2 through 10. If not, then perhaps you're embracing the idea that verses 2-8 are the formation of the atmosphere only?

Here's my order of events by days (please post yours as well):

Day 1: Rudimentary primordial materials for the earth and cosmos, and light (and possibly angels as they are beings that possess intrinsic light bearing attributes).
Day 2: The expanse of the cosmos (space) That might have seemed mysterious to the writer, but today we understand space as an actual tangible thing. The waters (primordial fluids) of day one apparently existed apart from space for a brief time.
Day 3: The land and sea — presumably our planet, though the writer would not have grasped the planet concept. But it is notable that that land and sea were formed together. That would make sense knowing know, they make up our planet. At this point, there is no life, and the miraculous upholding of God is definitely necessary, considering there is no solar system in place, and no moon.
Day 4: The vast heavenly bodies of space. Presumably this is the point where God fixed our planet it its orbit around the sun, and gave us our satellite. The writers of course had no knowledge of this, but deductively, we can speculate.
Day 5: God populates the earth with flying and swimming animals.
Day 6: God creates Adam and Eve.

 

[dana b]

Genesis Creation Story is a perfect descripion of the sum of this world put under six catagories. (chapter one www.christianidentityrevealed2012.com)

 

[shernren]

This part is mere speculation on my part. What the text is telling me is that the land was made from this fluid. Can God make land out of actual H2O? Obviously that's not a problem for him. He can make wine or land out of water. I'm just speculating that this formless fluid need not be H2O per modern nomenclature.

What motivation do you have to think it wasn't water?

 

[granpa]

the wind "of God":

Relativistic jet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Relativistic jets are extremely powerful jets[1] of plasma which emerge from presumed massive objects at the centers of some active galaxies, notably radio galaxies and quasars

These jets have Lorentz factors of ~100 (that is, speeds of roughly 0.99995c), making them some of the swiftest celestial objects currently known

Because of the enormous amount of energy needed to launch a relativistic jet, some jets are thought to be powered by spinning black holes