Exegesis of John 3:16

[Charis kai Dunamis]

charis kai dunamis,
You are still being trivial.
You think I am saying that God's knowledge is in time and enslaved to our making a decision. That is ridiculous!
God is all powerful but his love is long suffering and he will not wield his power unlawfully because he said he is bound by his law which is immutable.
Time originates with God because he had to be in a world of no time before he created our universe. I think there is more to the definition of no time.
You seem to want to prove that I say man is overriding God and that is not true if you believe that.
Why don't you say what your belief is and your point is clearly instead of trying to get me to play a guessing game if you think I don't follow what you are saying. Start again. Jerry Kelso

Honestly I'm not sure how much clearer I can be here. Either the choices of men are foreordained and decreed by God (Reformed Theology teaches this), and therefore find their primary cause in God (second cause in man), or the choices of men are not foreordained by God and instead originate within man Himself as their primary cause.

My question to you is how God can have any sort of true foreknowledge of something completely ad extra. I am arguing that He can't - His omniscience requires that His free will is inextricably linked with His free knowledge; He knows what He does. And Reformed Theology has recognized this and made clear that God's eternal decree, in which God exhaustively has ordained all things which come to pass, gives reason for His own free knowledge of what is actual. He knows it all because He willed it all. In the opposing scheme, it is not God's will which is causative, but man's will. Therefore, how does God know?

 

[jerry kelso]

Honestly I'm not sure how much clearer I can be here. Either the choices of men are foreordained and decreed by God (Reformed Theology teaches this), and therefore find their primary cause in God (second cause in man), or the choices of men are not foreordained by God and instead originate within man Himself as their primary cause.

My question to you is how God can have any sort of true foreknowledge of something completely ad extra. I am arguing that He can't - His omniscience requires that His free will is inextricably linked with His free knowledge; He knows what He does. And Reformed Theology has recognized this and made clear that God's eternal decree, in which God exhaustively has ordained all things which come to pass, gives reason for His own free knowledge of what is actual. He knows it all because He willed it all. In the opposing scheme, it is not God's will which is causative, but man's will. Therefore, how does God know?

charis kai dunamis,

1. Man's individual choice was not foreordained by God.
2. His plan of redemption was foreordained by God.
3. Foreknowledge doesn't violate freewill. There are people that know the judgement of breaking the law and it doesn't mean they won't make a freewill choice to break or keep the law.
4. If God knows it it is because he willed it. If that is true across the board then he created evil and is responsible for sin. Jerry kelso

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

4. If God knows it it is because he willed it. If that is true across the board then he created evil and is responsible for sin. Jerry kelso

So let me get this straight... you believe that God foreknew that sin would enter the world if in fact He created the world with a certain set of possibilities and circumstances, and yet, He went ahead and did so... and it was not what He purposed to happen?

 

[ZacharyB]

4. If God knows it it is because he willed it.

Thou cantest be serious!
God doesn't WILL man's crazy and insane choices, but He allows them.
Because man has free will.
Beyond that ... there is the perfect will of God, and the permissive will of God.

 

[jerry kelso]

Thou cantest be serious!
God doesn't WILL man's crazy and insane choices, but He allows them.
Because man has free will.
Beyond that ... there is the perfect will of God, and the permissive will of God.

zacharyb,
I didn't say that, I was answering to charis kai dunamis who believes in no freewill. You might want to read the post or at least the context before you jump the gun. I am serious; but I forgive you. Ok? Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

So let me get this straight... you believe that God foreknew that sin would enter the world if in fact He created the world with a certain set of possibilities and circumstances, and yet, He went ahead and did so... and it was not what He purposed to happen?

charis kai dunamis,

1. It is impossible to know everything God knows or the whys of what he does to the deepest degree.
What we do know is that God created men with a freewill choice. Adam and Eve really knew nothing fully about sin if really at all. God told them them could eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and they could understand that because God gave them ability to comprehend not to do and what not to do.

2. Some people believe that Adam and Eve only had true freewill choice for they were not bound to sin. We are born into sin. Most of the time not having freewill choice is because people believe in total depravity totally with no exceptions.

3. The truth we know is that God gave Satan freewill choice and he must have known the law of the Lord God for he was at the top of the species of angels. We are not told if there was a period of grace for the devil and his angels even though it would seem God of grace would offer it. Satan sinned and that is his nature. The reason he can't receive grace is that he went past the point of no return. Man that sins is his nature but he has the offer of grace and can make a choice to serve God to go to the point of no return because he has changed masters which Paul said in Romans 6 to the christian you are the servant to whom you serve.

4. Grace changes things and the way to attain to grace is that God demands to make a choice of trusting and obeying and he will put his stamp of approval that man is saved and it is only his work at Calvary that saves and no man had a part in that.

5. God gives warning throughout the bible and he warns not to be like Satan and the angels, and unbelievers. Ephesians 5 talks about fornication, and uncleaness, etc. let it not be named among them once as becometh saints for they knew that those type of people would not have inheritance of heaven. In verse 7 he says, be not ye therefore partakers with them, the unbelievers. If a christian hardens their heart the grow colder from the Lord. They can continue in that cycle and become reprobate and not choose God again. This is why Paul said that he could be a reprobate if he didn't mortify his members. There is no reason for the warnings and the possibility of becoming a reprobate if God is going to do all the work.

6. We know God deals with freewill people with freewill choice with judgements of good and bad according to the law so it will be pure agape love.

7. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10 that christians need to heed the example of Israel who were righteous in the covenant of law by baptism in the cloud and sea and think they stand because they are in grace and in the club they can fall. The corinthians had the idea they could stand by not keeping their body into subjection by their own strength. This is why Paul said he kept under his body and bring it into subjection: lets that by any mean, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. He didn't even say God would do it but said he did it. He didn't believe merely in self effort because he put his faith in the Lord. Paul had a made up mind and do his part of making a freewill choice to overcome. If you don't make a freewill choice to cooperate God is not obligated to do something for you. Why? Because you are not making a freewill choice to cooperate. A relationship is a two way street. Ours is to agree to do what God says. What part of that don't you understand?

8. God deals with freewill people to freely choose him and the fruits are either good or bad. This is true agape love and we know it is a fact and the reason why that he deals accordingly. I have to go to work. I'll be back in the morning. Jerry kelso

 

[ZacharyB]

zacharyb,
I didn't say that, I was answering to
charis kai dunamis who believes in no freewill.

Sorry, if I messed up!
Of course, nothing nearly as bad as someone who believes in the red.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

zacharyb,
I didn't say that, I was answering to charis kai dunamis who believes in no freewill. You might want to read the post or at least the context before you jump the gun. I am serious; but I forgive you. Ok? Jerry Kelso

Define "freewill". The freewill that I believe man has and the freewill you believe man has are two very different things. So that term is quite relative.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

charis kai dunamis,

1. It is impossible to know everything God knows or the whys of what he does to the deepest degree.
What we do know is that God created men with a freewill choice. Adam and Eve really knew nothing fully about sin if really at all. God told them them could eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and they could understand that because God gave them ability to comprehend not to do and what not to do.

2. Some people believe that Adam and Eve only had true freewill choice for they were not bound to sin. We are born into sin. Most of the time not having freewill choice is because people believe in total depravity totally with no exceptions.

3. The truth we know is that God gave Satan freewill choice and he must have known the law of the Lord God for he was at the top of the species of angels. We are not told if there was a period of grace for the devil and his angels even though it would seem God of grace would offer it. Satan sinned and that is his nature. The reason he can't receive grace is that he went past the point of no return. Man that sins is his nature but he has the offer of grace and can make a choice to serve God to go to the point of no return because he has changed masters which Paul said in Romans 6 to the christian you are the servant to whom you serve.

4. Grace changes things and the way to attain to grace is that God demands to make a choice of trusting and obeying and he will put his stamp of approval that man is saved and it is only his work at Calvary that saves and no man had a part in that.

5. God gives warning throughout the bible and he warns not to be like Satan and the angels, and unbelievers. Ephesians 5 talks about fornication, and uncleaness, etc. let it not be named among them once as becometh saints for they knew that those type of people would not have inheritance of heaven. In verse 7 he says, be not ye therefore partakers with them, the unbelievers. If a christian hardens their heart the grow colder from the Lord. They can continue in that cycle and become reprobate and not choose God again. This is why Paul said that he could be a reprobate if he didn't mortify his members. There is no reason for the warnings and the possibility of becoming a reprobate if God is going to do all the work.

6. We know God deals with freewill people with freewill choice with judgements of good and bad according to the law so it will be pure agape love.

7. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10 that christians need to heed the example of Israel who were righteous in the covenant of law by baptism in the cloud and sea and think they stand because they are in grace and in the club they can fall. The corinthians had the idea they could stand by not keeping their body into subjection by their own strength. This is why Paul said he kept under his body and bring it into subjection: lets that by any mean, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. He didn't even say God would do it but said he did it. He didn't believe merely in self effort because he put his faith in the Lord. Paul had a made up mind and do his part of making a freewill choice to overcome. If you don't make a freewill choice to cooperate God is not obligated to do something for you. Why? Because you are not making a freewill choice to cooperate. A relationship is a two way street. Ours is to agree to do what God says. What part of that don't you understand?

8. God deals with freewill people to freely choose him and the fruits are either good or bad. This is true agape love and we know it is a fact and the reason why that he deals accordingly. I have to go to work. I'll be back in the morning. Jerry kelso

None of this answered the question I asked you.

 

[EmSw]

Define "freewill". The freewill that I believe man has and the freewill you believe man has are two very different things. So that term is quite relative.

The freedom to choose between good and evil.

 

[Skala]

The freedom to choose between good and evil.

Will you have that freedom after the resurrection and glorification?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

The freedom to choose between good and evil.

That's a terrible definition. God has a perfect free will and He cannot choose to do evil.

 

[EmSw]

Will you have that freedom after the resurrection and glorification?

Everyone will.

 

[EmSw]

That's a terrible definition. God has a perfect free will and He cannot choose to do evil.

Man is not God!

 

[Skala]

Everyone will.

We'll be able to sin on the new earth? Huh.

 

[EmSw]

We'll be able to sin on the new earth? Huh.

If you don't rid your heart of sin now, and do good works, but continue in evil works, they will follow you.

Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

[jerry kelso]

Define "freewill". The freewill that I believe man has and the freewill you believe man has are two very different things. So that term is quite relative.

charis kai dunamis,

1. Freewill originated with God. God created us and gave us freewill.

2. People have freewill despite foreknowledge.

3. People have freewill in execution despite purpose. God's purpose and predestination is the plan of God to save mankind and that none should perish. No man has been predestined or purposed to go to hell. Sinners are destined for hell because of sin but God did not predestinate or purpose man to stay in that condition and thus did not purpose them to go to hell.

4. In your context you believe freewill for the sinner cannot make a choice of his own volition. If this is true then it must be the same across the board as a christian. This cannot be true because we know that a christian can commit sin and many christians believe that they can't help but sin because they are human and God is not going to make them sin.

5. So there is freewill in action of a person and despite one's nature and it originates with God because God deals with freewill people to make a choice on their own and this is why judgements of either good or bad are right and righteous and when you come to be judged it will be just the individual and God and he will judge righteously on what you did according to the freewill ability he gave for you to exercise with the brain that he gave.

6. So freewill doesn't violate an action of a sinner or a christian and it originated with God who gave us the ability. God purpose people to be saved and his plan of redemption was predestinated and shows this and not a program to go to hell. Sinners are destined to hell because they stay sinful of their own choice. Christians stay a christian because they have a made up mind and trust and obey God and allow him to work his power through them.

7. Paul had the ability to become a reprobate but said he mortified his members. This shows he had a part in his relationship and not just God because relationship is reciprocal. Do you think relationship with God is not reciprocal?

8. Absence of freewill choice in a person means that God has to make all the decisions. The
T-U-L-I-P believes God is sovereign in all things especially in unconditional election but they don't believe he is sovereign in christian's daily lives when it comes to sin because they sin. If God was sovereign in making the choice to serve him and persevering he should be sovereign in never sinning or else you have to make God responsible for your sin and it would be unfair to judge you at all about anything. Freewill choice of a human is fair and it doesn't violate the decrees or purpose of his predestination of humans who he predestinated the plan of God to be able to be free from sin. Jerry Kelso

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

2. People have freewill despite foreknowledge.

I'm going to stop you right there and ask you to explain how this is possible.

 

[ZacharyB]

I'm going to stop you right there and ask you to explain how this is possible.

Charis is hereby taking exception to Jerry's exceedingly exceptionally true comment:
People have freewill despite foreknowledge.

Me, I can't believe I'm readin' this conversation ...
I'm goin' back to my home planet, wherever that is! Chow

 

[jerry kelso]

I'm going to stop you right there and ask you to explain how this is possible.

charis kai dunamis,

1. The story goes; a farmer hears a sermon on God's decree, took an unsafe winding and bending road home instead of the straight and narrow and the safe way home and broke his wheel on his wagon in consequence, and decided before the end of the journey that he had been predestinated to be a fool, and that he had made his calling and election sure.

2. This shows the will is free in man's consciousness of ability, and secondly by man's consciousness of imputability. By nature, he is potentially self-determining; as matter of fact he often becomes self determining.

3. Both saints and sinners have freewill despite knowing something before hand and it is no different when responding to divine decrees.
Both consciousness and conscience witness that God's decrees are not execute by laying compulsion upon the free wills of men.

4. The bible says he that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.
You say that a sinner has freewill and that is why he sins and he cannot make a change without God. This is true for only God can change a heart. This doesn't mean that he interferes or that he will to interfere with freewill choice of man. This would be compulsion on his part.

5. If a sinner's freewill can only be used in sin and they cannot make a freewill choice in knowledge given and conviction of the Holy Spirit then it would have to be the same with a christian that they should have no freewill when sinning for it is not his or her's nature to sin and God does not want them to sin.
Knowledge of a plan as ideal or possibility can precede decree; but knowledge of a plan as actual or fixed must follow decree. The latter is proper foreknowledge.

6. There is no scripture that says God predestines a man's freewill choice. He didn't predestinate men to go to hell. He predestined the redemptive plan to save men from their sins and to be conformed to the image of his son.

7. If God's sovereignty and power is strong enough and has to be rendered on behalf of man in the act of salvation it should do the same to prevent a christian from sinning for he hates sin and he cannot sin and he cannot be held responsible for sin. Foreknowledge does not mandate freewill from God, otherwise he would be guilty of compulsion. Jerry kelso