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LovebirdsFlying

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It might be pertinent to the discussion to go to ericberne.com and click on the information for the marital game, "Frigid Woman." Some people may remember Dr. Eric Berne as the author of the book "Games People Play," of which this is one. I can't link it because one of the games at the site has a borderline vulgar name, but a google search should bring it up easily.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Pshhh...

I know I'm good at sex, I [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] every time.
 
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sdmsanjose

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The excuse chart that the OP linked us to is ripe for all kinds of speculations. What I see in some of the posts here is that the women are defending the women’s point of view and SPECULTING that the man is mostly at fault and the men are doing the some thing in SPECULTING about the woman. I am not excluding myself as one of the speculators.


Here are my speculations today:

The husband needs to pay attention and do what the wife needs even if he does not feel like it; see one specific list by Inkachu reprinted below

The wife needs to pay attention and do what the husband needs (Including sex) even if she does not feel like it except when serious physical issues are present.

Instead of having speculations about what we think each sex is doing wrong what about speculating as to what will work a lot better for a better relationship?

If both partners do not meet the major needs of the other then the chance of Divorce is high. Then it would not matter if he or she was right or wrong the family would be fractured. I think it much better to concentrate on what each partner can do to prevent getting a divorce than get into a speculation debate as to which sex is wrong.




By Inkachu
Before the wedding, there's usually hand holding, hugs, kisses, caresses, cuddles, whispered sweet nothings, passionate embraces. After the wedding, it's often reduced to "hey, you awake?"

Do what you did when you were courting her and treated her like her affection actually meant something to you
 
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tall73

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My first reaction is, I wouldn't want to have sex with a drunk man either. I wonder if she's using the other excuses because she doesn't want to just say "No, you're drunk," every time.

Except on 6-16 she was the drunk one.
 
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.chrys.

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Regarding meeting the major needs of the other:

How does a man hold hands, hug, kiss, caress, cuddle, whisper sweet nothings, passionately embrace and treat her like affection actually meant something to him...if it truly does NOT "mean something" to him? Is he to "fake" the embrace, the kiss, the cuddle? Perform these physical acts while exhibiting fake emotion? Is this what a wife wants or needs? Or, would it be acceptable to the wife if he were to be honest with her and simply offer the hand holding because she needs it, or to type up a list of "sweet nothings" on slips of paper and keep them in his pocket at the ready for reading aloud, or to maybe schedule a set time for hugging ("After dinner, I will be offering you a 15 second hug every evening.")?
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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I think you raised excellent points. I only want to observe that whether he or she is creating the tension between them, in neither case is it the *entire gender* at fault. And it's probably both of them, because I've learned that it's usually not the fault of only one or only the other. Most of the time, they both contribute.

I say that because in another discussion at another site, the topic was nagging. Several women voiced the frustration that they wouldn't feel they had to nag, if their husbands would only follow through on what they said they were going to do. This led to a man I now believe to be what's called an "MRM troll" (Men's Rights Movement) to say in response, "You hear that, men? Our only function in life is to do what the women tell us to do. That's all we're good for." I pointed out that it isn't a matter of what the women told them to do; it's what they themselves already said they were going to do, which prompted from him a very sarcastic, "Oh, of course. How silly of me. I should have remembered it's always the man's fault. The woman is never the problem." Which, of course, is a strawman argument, because everybody except that MRM troll was talking about their own experiences, and he was the only one trying to make it about "always" and "never."

And although nobody has, I could just HEAR the same thing being said here, when we speculate (as is the correct term) such things as maybe he's selfish in bed, or he's drunk. If there were MRM trolls in this thread, they would be reacting the same way, accusing the speculating women of saying, "It has to be the man's fault. It's never the woman's." And nobody said that. We're all just kicking around a bunch of "maybe," based on our own experiences. I, for one, know exactly how it is when he's both drunk and selfish in bed, although it would be indelicate of me to elaborate.

Except on 6-16 she was the drunk one.

Point. I had some neighbors once, a married couple. Both of them were raging alcoholics, constantly drunk, loud, foul-mouthed, and obnoxious to about an equal degree. I didn't know whether it was funny or sad, the irony of it, when one of them would accuse the other of being "nothing but a blankety-blank drunk!"
 
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Inkachu

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What... the... bleep...
 
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Inkachu

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How does a man hold hands, hug, kiss, caress, cuddle, whisper sweet nothings, passionately embrace and treat her like affection actually meant something to him...if it truly does NOT "mean something" to him?

If his wife's heart and soul and love truly "mean nothing" to him, they need counseling.
 
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.chrys.

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Sorry, I should have clarified what the "it" was in my question.

Instead of asking, "How does a man hold hands, hug, kiss, caress, cuddle, whisper sweet nothings, passionately embrace and treat her like affection actually meant something to him...if it truly does NOT "mean something" to him," I should have asked, "How does a man hold hands, hug, kiss, caress, cuddle, whisper sweet nothings, passionately embrace and treat her like affection actually meant something to him...if the physical acts of affection expressed in holding hands, kissing, caressing and cuddling (and so on) truly does NOT "mean something" to him?"
 
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Inkachu

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I'm sorry, how is that different from what we originally said? You're asking for a difference between "his wife's heart and soul and love" and the wife's "physical acts of affection"? As if the husband wants his wife's love, but not her physical affection? That doesn't make any sense to me. If you want to try and re-word it again, feel free.
 
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Inkachu

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If a man does not enjoy the physical act of hugging, is it possible for him to please his wife by hugging her if she knows that he does not enjoy hugging?

OK, now THAT question makes sense lol.

If you want to continue to use my posts and examples as a reference for your question, then we need to ask "Why did he hug and cuddle and snuggle her for months on end while he was courting her? Was he "faking" it the whole time? Just so he could marry her and get her into bed and then drop his affectionate charade?"

If the answer is no (he wasn't faking it), then what happened to make him suddenly hate hugging? That needs to be addressed.

If the answer is yes (he was faking it), then his wife is faced with the unfortunate reality that her husband deceived her into thinking he enjoyed physical affection, when he really doesn't. That also needs to be addressed.

Should she force him (via guilt trips or what-have-you) into hugging her when she knows he doesn't want to? I don't think so. I think they need to address the underlying questions of why it used to occur and now doesn't.
 
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tall73

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And sex is something he has to earn? It's a reward now?





In this thread we have learned you have to be
-clean
-not drunk
-a good lover
-willing to show lots of affection to build up to the act, courting her, etc.
-on good emotional ground in the marriage

essentially have all other issues dealt with, and she has to be "in the mood" apart from all that, for the wife to want to have sex with you.

It sounds like you don't disagree with him as much as you might think in regards to earning it.


Meanwhile many men report that they are physically wired to want sex rather frequently. Call us pigs or whatever. It just is there. About the only thing that is required is that he doesn't find her completely repulsive, and there are not huge physical issues.

So yes, sometimes it does feel like "earning" it, whether intended or not.

And here is a related thought...men tend to feel more bonded after sex, and might be more likely to show affection if they actually have sex.
 
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Inkachu

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In this thread we have learned you have to be
-clean

I never said this.

...-not drunk...

Never said this, either.

-a good lover...

Or this.

-willing to show lots of affection to build up to the act, courting her, etc.

ONLY if that's how you presented yourself from the beginning of the relationship. If there's been a lack of that from the start, then the wife has no grounds to complain it's now absent.

-on good emotional ground in the marriage

Well, duh. Who wants to offer up their most intimate and vulnerable side to someone who's abusive or being a jerk? That can go either way, for either spouse, btw.

and she has to be "in the mood" apart from all that, for the wife to want to have sex with you.

And putting something "in quotes" always makes it less valid.

It sounds like you don't disagree with him as much as you might think in regards to earning it.

Well, since I didn't say most of what you just tried to paint me saying... you're wrong.

Meanwhile the man is wired to want sex rather frequently. Call us pigs or whatever. It just is there. About the only thing that is required is that he doesn't find her completely repulsive, and there are not huge physical issues.

Does anyone NOT know this already?

So yes, sometimes it does feel like "earning" it, whether intended or not.

Again, I never made some long laundry list of "MUST HAVE/BE/DO"'s so not sure why you're aiming this at me.

And here is a related thought...men tend to feel more bonded after sex, and might be more likely to show affection if they actually have sex.

And here's another related thought. I already knew that.
And yet another related thought: how is that not requiring the wife to EARN his affection through giving up sex?

Something to think about. It goes both ways.
 
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.chrys.

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Whew.
Thanks for understanding. And, I have to say, I agree with everything you've listed.
 
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Inkachu

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Whew.
Thanks for understanding. And, I have to say, I agree with everything you've listed.

LOL, thanks for hanging in there and persisting until we understood each other!
 
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Athene

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Historically, women were always seen as the ones with the higher sex drive. I wonder when that all changed ...

Women are physically wired to want sex frequently, possibly even more frequently than men according to the most recent studies on the subject. Loss of libido is usually down to some underlying issue.

Good personal hygiene, not being drunk and being a good lover should not be considered onerous. Sex is a two way thing and giving pleasure is just as much a part of it as receiving. If that is considered too much effort then frankly some people deserve not to have sex.
 
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Inkachu

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Sha-zam!
 
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