Excuse Chart

Let's say you had a husband that belittled you every day. Would you keep a mental record of that?

You may have a point, ThunderPeel.

I think the chart may be a good start to a dialogue about expectations. Out of that random 28-day sample, he got what he wanted 3 times. I don't think that's an abnormal frequency, but if he does, it's worth bringing up as a couple. And hard data is easier to assess than emotional whims like "I don't feel like I get my way very much." Because he may be thinking of the 25 days she said no, while she's thinking of the 3 days she said yes, and memory is hard to quantify. So yes, the table is a good approach to dialogue. But it's not evidence of a bad marriage.

As a woman, I can think of several rebuttal tables I might present in response to it. Like... number of times I didn't shower until the next morning because the kids used up all the hot water. Maybe you should get around to installing that bigger water tank?? And of course a table of my own unmet needs. Like... number of times I asked you to take the trash out and a list of your excuses.

Thunder Peel said:

...This guy may have some valid points but he's also making sex such a huge priority that it's interfering with everything else in their relationship.

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ValleyGal said:

An additional thought to the spreadsheet: it is a record of "poor me, I don't get enough sex, and here is how wife hurts me."

Love keeps no record of wrongs. So yeah, here's a guy who probably does not love his wife....I wouldn't put out much either, if I were not loved.

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akmom said:

You may have a point, ThunderPeel.

I think the chart may be a good start to a dialogue about expectations. Out of that random 28-day sample, he got what he wanted 3 times. I don't think that's an abnormal frequency, but if he does, it's worth bringing up as a couple. And hard data is easier to assess than emotional whims like "I don't feel like I get my way very much." Because he may be thinking of the 25 days she said no, while she's thinking of the 3 days she said yes, and memory is hard to quantify. So yes, the table is a good approach to dialogue. But it's not evidence of a bad marriage.

As a woman, I can think of several rebuttal tables I might present in response to it. Like... number of times I didn't shower until the next morning because the kids used up all the hot water. Maybe you should get around to installing that bigger water tank?? And of course a table of my own unmet needs. Like... number of times I asked you to take the trash out and a list of your excuses.

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Lots of validity to that concept - except you just compared sex to a chore instead of intimacy!!! LOL!

I think a good parallel could be the couple who comes home after interacting with people all day at work. One of them, however, feels closer to their spouse by talking and sharing about their day, but the other is fine with sitting quietly together on the couch. If the one who needs to talk to feel loved isn't getting to do that enough, perhaps a chart as a dialogue starter might be an OK tool. FWIW, in either case, I think getting rejected 89% of the time is high number (said not knowing what is going on behind the curtain with that couple).

True. But "conversation" might be a little harder to prove with a table. Maybe the wife doesn't feel like he listened to her or acknowledged her, but he was vaguely aware of her talking and nodded a few times, so he doesn't understand the problem. Whether or not sex occurred is a little more clear-cut.

I think he could probably cheat a little here. She mentions she feels "gross" a lot. I bet that wouldn't stop her from accepting a massage, if he just initiated one. Then he has breached that "touch" barrier, and also probably changed her feelings about intimacy, since massage makes a pretty easy transition.

My husband and I try to give massages at least every few days. It's also a good bargaining chip for just about anything else. Don't want to fix the clogged toilet? Neither do I. How about in exchange for a neck massage? Deal. I forgot about those left-overs in the fridge from a month ago and now it's too gross for me. A 15-minute massage won't suffice for such a task? How about half an hour? No? Okay, I'll just leave it for next year (calling a bluff). Oh, so you will do it for a 30-minute massage. Deal.

Originally Posted by sdmsanjose
heck I would not be surprised if the 70 year olds have sex more than 3 times in two months!


By Bluegreysky
Yes, they are my husband's parents.

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Now that is encouraging!!!

The whole thing of "not keeping score of hurts" seems kinda preposterous to me.

Of course people keep score of hurts. Think about the number of times that you've heard people in here talking about how their husbands are demeaning to them (or have been over a prolonged period). Isn't that keeping score?

How would it be received if someone were to say "Well, clearly you don't love him, and how is he supposed to be respectful of a wife that clearly doesn't love him?"

That would be a ridiculous thing to say...at least IMHO.

I think he's perfectly fair in keeping score - just as I think a wife whose husband is demeaning to her is equally fair in keeping score. I'm all about equal opportunity

Ezoo, I'm just going by what the Bible says. There is the idea of boundaries, which does not "keep score" but does work to protect the marriage from bad things like mental abuse or sexual deprivation as a means of power-over. But actually keeping a spreadsheet? I think that's gone way too far, far beyond what boundaries are. It serves to remind a person how nasty their spouse is, and gives them something to lord over their spouse, or at the very least, use against them.

The Bible tells us to think about things that are right, pure, lovely, good, praiseworthy, etc. Keeping score of when the wife rejects you, that's not nurturing positive thinking about your spouse, and is very damaging to the marriage.

ValleyGal said:

Ezoo, I'm just going by what the Bible says. There is the idea of boundaries, which does not "keep score" but does work to protect the marriage from bad things like mental abuse or sexual deprivation as a means of power-over. But actually keeping a spreadsheet? I think that's gone way too far, far beyond what boundaries are. It serves to remind a person how nasty their spouse is, and gives them something to lord over their spouse, or at the very least, use against them.

The Bible tells us to think about things that are right, pure, lovely, good, praiseworthy, etc. Keeping score of when the wife rejects you, that's not nurturing positive thinking about your spouse, and is very damaging to the marriage.

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Agreed - I think that it's kinda juvenile.

The only way I could ever see myself doing something like that is if there was a difference in perception...kind of like...I believed that it happened with X frequency - but my wife believed that it happened with Y frequency. If they were at such odds with each other that it didn't make sense - I could see possibly doing it simply for clarity.

I wouldn't approach giving the results in the same way he did, though.

My guess is she probably told him they had sex every week when they argued about it, and he was mailing her his evidence. It seems like a tacky way to communicate, but, IMO, it's a lot tackier for her to post this, especially if it is not totally anonymous.

It also makes her look like a 'sexual refuser' with a lot of lame excuses. I wonder on his part if the problem is his approach, asking point blank without any warm up and accepting her first excuse as a 'no'. If she doesn't feel like it because she came back from the gym, he could invite her to have a shower or tell her he likes her when she is sweaty.

"I feel gross" is not "no."

Thunder Peel said:

This is also a good reason why men need to condition themselves to lower their drive. I've never met a wife who wanted sex more than her husband: it rarely happens. The unfortunate thing about being a man is our wiring for intimacy and how it drives us. I went from having no drive in my late teens and early 20's to suddenly seeing it explode a few years later. It's not fun and it takes work to keep it in check for most men. Women may be able to take or leave it but men have a bigger desire and therefore we need to work harder on making it less of a priority. From there it becomes an unexpected surprise instead of a need that you're always begging for. Too many men allow it to control them and the leads to a lot of problems, including pornography and affairs.

This guy may have some valid points but he's also making sex such a huge priority that it's interfering with everything else in their relationship.

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I don't see where the Bible says for married men to focus on decreasing their sex drives for their wives. The only thing along those lines that I can think of is where I Corinthians 7 recommends abstaining for prayer and fasting, but with mutual consent. It tells each partner to render to the other due benevolence. If you have a partner with greater desire, then you just try to meet that partner's needs. Chances are, there will be some area in the marriage where your partner can bend over backwards to meet your needs.

But Proverbs 5 encourages a man to desire his wife and for his wife to ever satisfy him. That was back before they had TVs for entertainment, too. They probably had a lot of sex to make babies to staff those farms and the national militia.

I heard a speaker on Christian radio say she was going to go with the stereotype of husbands having greater desire than their wives. But she said in about 20% of marriages, it was reversed. If you haven't heard of this, it is probably because women don't go around telling men how their husbands don't want enough sex. A man might say something about it to a male friend, lament it, or make a joke about it.

If I recall correctly, that speaker said it's not always a case of women having lower sex drives. They aren't all just ready to start at the drop of a hat like a man is (some men). In that case, if she's willing to be put into the right mood and he's willing to work with her on that, some of the problems can be resolved that way.

LinkH said:

"I feel gross" is not "no."

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Yes it is. "I feel gross" is right there with "I've had a migraine all day long", "I'm far too tired after the day I've had", "I'm nauseous" or "I'm in a lot of pain". It is a NO without saying no. It's explaining the no so you don't have to say it.

Who wants non-consensual sex in a marriage or otherwise anyhow?

thankful_in_VT said:

Husband creates spreadsheet detailing wife's 'excuses' for turning down sex - Health & Families - Life and Style - The Independent

For the link phobic the excuse chart:

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Am I the only one who noticed that there are days not entered on his little diary? So what happened on those days?

MessianicMommy said:

Yes it is. "I feel gross" is right there with "I've had a migraine all day long", "I'm far too tired after the day I've had", "I'm nauseous" or "I'm in a lot of pain". It is a NO without saying no. It's explaining the no so you don't have to say it.

Who wants non-consensual sex in a marriage or otherwise anyhow?

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Yep.

I don't see a good future for this couple, or any couple that would behave in such a way towards each other. Him for making the record of 'wrongs' or her for publishing it. Let's remember the biblical requirements of LOVE.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

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I'd guess those were days he didn't try

According to the OP article, the husband shared his spreadsheet of alleged facts with his wife, it was the wife who shared it with the rest of the world. So I'm not sure why the husband is seen as apparently whining to the world "poor me, this is how my wife hurts me."

The husband may be "tacky", "keeping score", not maintaining only positive thoughts, and being "very damaging to the marriage" but if so, is the wife's airing of their dirty laundry to the rest of the world OK (or much different)?

If one of our spouses expresses a complaint to us and we pull the "you're keeping score" card, or the "you're not thinking only positive thoughts" card, or the "you're being very damaging to our marriage" card, would that be OK, and honoring to God or our marriages? Shouldn't some accountability, integity, honesty, and genuine love and caring be part of the equation? In an objective mood, I think most of us would say yes.

In my own marriage, we've been blessed (there's that B word) with extremely compatible sex drives, but we've had hindrances, all of the common ones such as having 3 young children at the time, busy lives, and so on. My wife never pulled the "I'm gross, sweaty" card, mostly because she is all about good hygene and stays clean, but if necessary, she would have done something about it because she enjoys sex. Like taking a 10 minute shower or even a 30-45 minute bath. There was always the will, so there was, almost always, a way. We've always shared other forms of intimacy besides sex, and intimacy, not just the sexual form, which is a pretty good indicator of closeness ("oneness").

It's usually the men that complain about a lack of sex, but again, even when men mention they would like more of it, I don't hear sullen, angry, or resentful complaints about a lack of sex if other forms of intimacy and genuine love and caring are present. And of course, it takes two to tango, men often selfishly or unwittingly or unwisely neglect their relationship with their wives and substantially contribute to their wives "lower libido" or poor attitude, and both the pot and stove soon become black.

My wife never pulled the "I'm gross, sweaty" card, mostly because she is all about good hygene and stays clean

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The wife in this case had been to the gym. You do get gross and sweaty at the gym - if you're actually going there for fitness.

Hetta said:

The wife in this case had been to the gym. You do get gross and sweaty at the gym - if you're actually going there for fitness.

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Yes, I recall the gym being mentioned, once I think. My wife goes to the gym and showers before she leaves. Most gyms have showers, all of the ones that I have visited do. Maybe the wife's gym doesn't, and maybe she doesn't have one at home.

MessianicMommy said:

Yes it is. "I feel gross" is right there with "I've had a migraine all day long", "I'm far too tired after the day I've had", "I'm nauseous" or "I'm in a lot of pain". It is a NO without saying no. It's explaining the no so you don't have to say it.

Who wants non-consensual sex in a marriage or otherwise anyhow?

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See I'm still new at marriage but just like other human beings I have days I'm tired and sick and stressed out but my hubby has a high libido and "physical" is his #1 love language so though he actually WILL take "no" for an answer (I jokingly said he wouldnt), you can tell how much he's struggling when he has to. The first few days of marriage, while on the honeymoon, we did plenty of good stuff. But the first 2 weeks back to work after that, I didn't really bother with it as much. He'd proposition me at about 10pm when I am trying to go to bed so I can get up early enough before work to do devo's and exercise and I'd be like "duuuudddddeee you should have asked earlier I'm too tired now"
But part of the mistake I was making that lead to me not addressing his needs before he had to ask at the very last minute was I was treating it like dessert. You know how most people only eat dessert after dinner and doing the dishes and working out and all that?
well I was treating it like it was a special reward for a good day or for the weekend or for date night.
NO.
Some research I did pointed to it being more liek a vitamin.
"Vitamin I". Intimacy (sex + cuddles + kisses + everything else) was more like something I needed to get through the day healthy and strong, not a reward at the end of the week.
So for the past month (our marriage is only about 7 weeks old) I have really worked at an outlook that says "the days I come home stressed out and tired are the days I need love the most, as does he".
And you know what? In just one month I've learned to use that thinking to push past cramps, headaches, tummy aches, the sniffles, anger, sadness, tiredness and anxiety. (haha I've had some drama at work and some issues with allergies too) I went into the bedroom with him and turned off all the media instead of telling him to wait 3 days until I "felt 100%".
I figure if I can't call out sick from work every single time I have allergy symptoms or a little cold (I'd be out sick waaay too much) then I can't call out sick from our marriage either. The show must go on.

Perhaps the wife in the chart has been using the "cupcake" excuse...sex is only for a treat and a reward once in awhile.... and not looking at it like it's "vitamin I" for her marriage.

Hetta said:

Am I the only one who noticed that there are days not entered on his little diary? So what happened on those days?

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I noticed here, on page 1:

ValleyGal said:

I wonder if she initiated on the days that he never wrote about.

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