• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Exchanging Shields of Gold for Shields of Brass

Status
Not open for further replies.

AVBunyan

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2003
1,131
78
71
Visit site
✟25,216.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Based upon a message by the late Dr. Jack Hyles
(Modified to fit ithe subject addressed)

2 Chr 12:9 So Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem, and took away the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house; he took all: he carried away also the shields of gold which Solomon had made.
2 Chr 12:10 Instead of which king Rehoboam made shields of brass,…

You should know the story. Because of sin God judged Jerusalem and then God sent Shisjak who attacked Jerusalem and took away the shields of gold. So, Rehoboam made shields of brass, which was a step down.

What has Christianity done today? Because of sin and neglect God sent the world, flesh, and the devil to take away the book God used for over 350 years, a King James Bible. What has Christianity done about it? Oh, they have replaced their shields of gold with shields of brass, the modern versions. These brass shields are still shields but they not the same – they are not the real thing – the quality has dropped. Yes, I know, most really believe these shields of brass are still shields of gold.

And yes, I understand the shields were not there for defense but for decoration for I doubt people would use shields of gold in battle.

How did these gold shields that have held up for so long get replaced by inferior shields?

What do these saints say the reasons are for exchanging the tried and proven gold shields for shields of brass?
1. The old gold shields had flaws in it.
2. Nobody uses gold anymore – brass is the new and popular element of choice.
3. New and more improved ways of making shields though the material is still inferior.
4. Better and more experienced shield makers today using more scientific methods.
5. The common soldier has trouble using gold – brass is much easier to use.

Here are my opinions on why the gold has been cast aside – you have yours – I have mine.
1. The soldiers started neglecting (reading) the gold shields. They thought they could do without them. They forgot the good service they had done in past battles.
2. The soldiers started loosing confidence in the gold because the “enlightened ones” convinced them they were flawed.
3. Because of the neglect (II Tim. 4:3) they couldn’t tell the difference anymore between gold and brass.
4. Because of sin and worldliness the gold shields became to convicting and authoritative.
5. They were fooled by Madison Avenue marketing techniques (I Tim. 6:10).
6. They became mesmerized by scholars and education (Col 2:8).
7. They wanted something new (Acts 17:21) – they wanted to rebel against the established ways like many did in the 60’s.
8. They forgot or never read of the history of the old battles and victories of the soldiers who used the gold shields.

Now what are some of the results of replacing the gold shields with brass ones? Are the brass shields solely responsible for the below? No, but they have greatly aided though.
1. Sound doctrine has gone by the wayside – the average soldier today can’t even write down how they got saved if they are even saved. They can’t see the false doctrine in the newer versions for they are not grounded in sound doctrine.
2. The youth look and act more like the world every day – same sounding music, sports, ear rings, movies, etc.
3. Business methods have replaced spiritual methods in building churches.
4. Numbers have replaced quality in churches.
5. Less true evangelism
6. Dumbed-down church members
And more….

You are asking, “Where do get the above 6 results from? That’s just your opinion.” Actually, I get the above by comparing the lives of the saints over the past 350 years with the saints today. What is the main difference between the past and the present? The past had one book and they believed it - the present has multiple/conflicting books with no real confidence. Some would try and convince me the saints of today are more spiritual than those of the past? If they do then I question their standard of judgment.

* Can one survive on MacDonald’s fast food?
Well, yes but their health will suffer.

* Are most ingredients there in the fast food to sustain life?
Well yes, but there is also a lot of other things in there that are not good for you as well.

But that’s fine with some folks because some “like” the way it tastes – who cares what the fast food is doing to your insides.

Folks – some have traded your shields of gold for shields of brass by your own choice.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

God bless :wave:
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2006
563
18
✟805.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
and the devil to take away the book God used for over 350 years, a King James Bible. Oh, they have replaced their shields of gold with shields of brass, the modern versions. These brass shields are still shields but they not the same – they are not the real thing – the quality has dropped.

According to your seeming allegorical interpretation of Scripture, what is the purpose of the claimed shield? If the purpose is for defense, would a shield of brass be better and more durable than a shield of soft gold?

For around 100 years, English-speaking believers used the beloved 1560 Geneva Bible. According to a consistent application of your reasoning, did the devil use the compromising Church of England to prevent the printing of this good Bible in England?

Can you provide valid evidence that shows that the quality of the 1611 KJV was better than the quality of the Geneva Bible at every verse?
 
Upvote 0

AVBunyan

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2003
1,131
78
71
Visit site
✟25,216.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
According to your seeming allegorical interpretation of Scripture, what is the purpose of the claimed shield? If the purpose is for defense, would a shield of brass be better and more durable than a shield of soft gold?

For around 100 years, English-speaking believers used the beloved 1560 Geneva Bible. According to a consistent application of your reasoning, did the devil use the compromising Church of England to prevent the printing of this good Bible in England?

Can you provide valid evidence that shows that the quality of the 1611 KJV was better than the quality of the Geneva Bible at every verse?
My mistake - I thought I posted the modifed post originally which included:
"And yes, I understand the shields were not there for defense but for decoration for I doubt people would use shields of gold in battle."

I edited the OP

Thanks
 
Upvote 0

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2006
563
18
✟805.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
How did these gold shields that have held up for so long get replaced by inferior shields?

Is there any valid evidence that proves that every one of the renderings of the 1611 KJV were superior and of better quality than every one of the renderings of the Geneva Bible? Did the KJV translators sometimes keep some renderings from the Bishops' Bible when another pre-1611 English Bible already had simpler, clearer, more up-to-date, and perhaps more accurate renderings?

Here are just a few examples of several pages of them that could be presented:

Gen. 1:28 fill (Geneva) replenish (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 16:6 dealt roughly (Geneva) dealt hardly (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 21:26 know (Geneva) wot (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 22:1 prove (Geneva) tempt (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 24:57 ask her consent (Geneva) inquire at her mouth (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 24:63 toward the evening (Geneva) at the eventide (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 25:7 seventy and five (Geneva) threescore and fifteen (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 27:28 wheat (Geneva) corn (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 37:22 deliver (Geneva) rid (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 39:8 knoweth (Geneva) wotteth (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 41:54 famine (Geneva) dearth (Bishops', KJV)
Gen. 46:27 seventy (Geneva) threescore and ten (Bishops', KJV)
 
Upvote 0

AVBunyan

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2003
1,131
78
71
Visit site
✟25,216.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
If I understand your point, the KJV is better for looks hanging on some guard that is ceremonial, but if you are going into war you would be better equipped with the brass shields of more modern versions. Is that correct?

Marv
Yes, - you would be correct if strength in battle was the doctrine but....

The doctrine - the gold shields were there to display the greatness and magnificence of Israel's God. When they lost the gold shields they dropped a bit and settled for a "lesser glory". The doctrine is not about shields for battle.

Application - the King James Bible displayed the glory of God - it has now been largely set aside - The modern versions, we believe, do not "display" the glory of God as well.

God bless
 
Upvote 0

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2006
563
18
✟805.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
According to a consistent application of your reasoning, when another English translation whether pre-1611 or post-1611 gives a better or more accurate rendering than the KJV at any word or verse, it would be displaying the glory of God better at that rendering than the KJV.
 
Upvote 0

AVBunyan

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2003
1,131
78
71
Visit site
✟25,216.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
According to a consistent application of your reasoning, when another English translation whether pre-1611 or post-1611 gives a better or more accurate rendering than the KJV at any word or verse, it would be displaying the glory of God better at that rendering than the KJV.
Accurate rendering based on what Logos? What is your standard of judgment?

BTW - it appears by your numerous posts you sure do have issues with the greatest book ever written. Be prepared - you may have to stand before God and explain to him why you have so many issues with the book he produced and used as the tool to save millions.
 
Upvote 0

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2006
563
18
✟805.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Accurate rendering based on what? What is your standard of judgment?

with the book he [God] produced and used as the tool to save millions.

The greater authority and standard for the making and evaluating of all translations is the preserved Scriptures in the original languages. The truth is consistent. A consistent and scriptural view of Bible translation would be true both before and after 1611 and would be true both for believers who speak English as well as believers who speak other languages.

Where do the Scriptures teach that God was any more involved with the Church of England translators of the KJV than He was with William Tyndale, the translators of the 1560 Geneva Bible, or believing translators after 1611?

Even many KJV-only authors have to acknowledge that 70 to 90% of the KJV's New Testament came from Tyndale's. Nevertheless, they seem to assume that the guiding of the Holy Spirit for William Tyndale was not of equal quality as the guiding of the Holy Spirit claimed for the Church of England translators of the KJV. According to the doctrinal views, William Tyndale and the translators of the Geneva Bible could be considered more sound in doctrine than the Church of England translators of the KJV.

I disagree with the inconsistent, man-made KJV-only theory that seems to use the same reasoning as was used for the Latin Vulgate-only view. The early English translators including the KJV translators rejected that reasoning. I accept the Geneva Bible, the KJV, and other good translations in the same way and sense that the early English translators and even the KJV translators accepted them. My view of Bible translation is the same view that they held.
 
Upvote 0

AVBunyan

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2003
1,131
78
71
Visit site
✟25,216.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
1.The greater authority and standard for the making and evaluating of all translations is the preserved Scriptures in the original languages.

2.Where do the Scriptures teach that God was any more involved with the Church of England translators of the KJV than He was with William Tyndale, the translators of the 1560 Geneva Bible, or believing translators after 1611?

3. Nevertheless, they seem to assume that the guiding of the Holy Spirit for William Tyndale was not of equal quality as the guiding of the Holy Spirit claimed for the Church of England translators of the KJV.

4. According to the doctrinal views, William Tyndale and the translators of the Geneva Bible could be considered more sound in doctrine than the Church of England translators of the KJV.

5. I disagree with the inconsistent, man-made KJV-only theory that seems to use the same reasoning as was used for the Latin Vulgate-only view.
1. So your authority is "dead" languages that the common man cannot speak nor understand - we have to trust “enlightened" Greek/Hebrew scholars then? BTW - which copies of the original languages? Sounds like you have multiple authorities – in fact, I know you do.

2. Where can you show me where the Holy Spirit wasn’t? Where from scripture can you show me I am incorrect – works both ways. Where can you show me the Holy Spirit left after Tyndale and the Geneva?

3. Again, did God quit after Tyndale? Who is to say that the Holy Spirit took the refining and perfecting process further? Can you prove this to be untrue?

4. Never said that – any ole bush will do. I trust God not the men. Many Anglicans were baby-sprinklers – why then did they not make that translate to support that? Logos – quit using the translators as an argument – you are leaving God out of it when you folks do this.

5. I disagree with your man-made multi-version argument – Face it Logos – you don’t want a final authority – you want to relish in your great “researching abilities” so you can find whatever version agrees with you and then you become your final authority. Sticking with one book takes all the glory out of all your comparisons and arguments. Go ahead, stick with agreeing with the world (lost and saved) on the issue of the KJV – you are better suited for it – it is safer – you know, whatever the majority does it must be right. You a re in agreement with the world – stand with your crowd –it is easier and safer for you.

Later
 
Upvote 0

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2006
563
18
✟805.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
1. So your authority is "dead" languages that the common man cannot speak nor understand - we have to trust “enlightened" Greek/Hebrew scholars then? BTW - which copies of the original languages? Sounds like you have multiple authorities –.

2. Where can you show me the Holy Spirit left after Tyndale and the Geneva?

3. Again, did God quit after Tyndale? Who is to say that the Holy Spirit took the refining and perfecting process further? Can you prove this to be untrue?

5. I disagree with your man-made multi-version argument –

In effect, the KJV-only view places trust in the interpreting/translating of Church of England scholars in 1611. The KJV-only view depends on a multi-version argument since the 1611 KJV was based on multiple original language sources, multiple pre-1611 English Bibles (Tyndale's to Bishops'), and multiple translations in other languages. I guess you also disagree with the very foundations on which the KJV depends unless you are claiming that the KJV was a translation of nothing and a revision of nothing. It is amazing that you seem to attack the very foundation on which the derived authority of any translation depends [the preserved Scriptures in the original languages]. The preserved words in the original languages given the prophets and apostles by direct inspiration of God and faithfully preserved by God are greater in authority than the interpreting/translating of men in 1611 who did not receive direct inspiration.

I did not claim that the Holy Spirit stopped guiding and working after Tyndale or the Geneva Bible. My point in line with the teachings of the Scriptures was that the guiding of the Holy Spirit in 1611 was no different than the guiding of the Holy Spirit in 1526, 1560, and in other years. The Scriptures do not teach that the Church of England translators of the KJV were some kind of special unique priesthood or popes who are alone understood, interpreted, and translated the Scriptures perfectly and infallibly.

The Scriptures were 100% perfect and inspired when given and did not need to go through a refining, purifying process
 
Upvote 0

AVBunyan

Senior Member
Dec 4, 2003
1,131
78
71
Visit site
✟25,216.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
1. The Scriptures were 100% perfect and inspired when given and

2. did not need to go through a refining, purifying process

1.Yes

2. Then how does this apply to the modern versions which contain doctrinal errors and other conflicts?
 
Upvote 0

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2006
563
18
✟805.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Then how does this apply to the modern versions ?

The scriptural principles that apply to modern versions are the same ones that applied to the pre-1611 English translations and the KJV and that apply to translations in other languages besides English. God was just as faithful in keeping His promises before 1611 as after 1611.
 
Upvote 0

plmarquette

Veteran
Oct 5, 2004
3,254
192
74
Auburn , IL.
✟4,379.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Politics
US-Republican
the point of the text , repeated several times in the old covenant ( 1,2 kings , chronicles , samuel ) ...

is that the king's lack of faith , caused them to rob the treasury to pay money to a heathen king ( like mob insurance ) so they would not attack Israel ...

or " hocked the gold shields " to hire mercenary fighters ...

rather than trust in God .. 2 chronicles 7.14 theme ...repentance = restoration ; disobedience = oppression ...
 
Upvote 0

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2006
563
18
✟805.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Exchanging Shields of Gold for Shields of Brass


Based upon a message by the late Dr. Jack Hyles
(Modified to fit ithe subject addressed)
*******
Great post!

The sermon by Jack Hyles as modified by AVBunyan seems to use the allegorical interpretation method of Origen.

PeterAV, are you saying that use of allegorical interpretation is great?
 
Upvote 0

rdclmn72

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2007
1,889
96
62
dunlap, tn
✟52,661.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
The restoration of Joash makes it plain that the armory within the temple complex was not merely ceremonial. it was a high security area which had a roster on who was allowed and who wasn't on pain of death.
Paul talks of a similar concept when he states that everyman's work shall be exposed to the fire. Making a difference in material that covers the structure is not the point, making it stable and strong is what passes the test of time. it only refers to whether you give it your best.
Solomon gave it his best, with the gold gone, bronze was what was left, it would then be blamelessly accepted as the best that anyone would be able to offer until a later time of prosperity would allow the production of gold shields.
Gold, bronze, its still a shield.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.