Excessive Force

[Antoninus Verus]

I was watching Court TV and they had a thing about a man who was arrested for second degree murder after he shot an intruder 12 times, twice in the chest and 10 times in the back. The prosecutor said that the fact that the man was shot in the back said that he was trying to get away and that the homeowner should have let him go.

What do you think? Should a homeowner be able to use as much force as he or she thinks is required to protect his or her own home and family?

I say yes. If Im standing there at 3am and your comming through my front door and its apparent that I didnt invite you, Im not gonna stop to ask questions. I dont know what your there for or what you have in your pocket. I will use anything in my power to make sure you are not a threat, ESPECIALLY if my family is in the house. If I have an M16, Im gonna pull the trigger and Im not gonna let go untill the clip is empty and if your still twitching, Im gonna re-load. My thinking is this,

1. Your in my house
2. I didnt invite you
3. I dont know why you are there but it probably isnt to deliver cookies
4. I dont know if your armed
5. I dont know what youll do now that your plans have been foiled
6. Im sure as HELL not going to take any chances.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

If the person is running away you can't shoot them in the back. Yes an intruder came in, fine defend your home. But once they start running away, they are no longer a threat, thus you are in a sense murdering the person.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

My question is how am I supposed to determine that someone is running away and not just running for cover so they can get thier own gun out? Especially if its late at night, my family is 100 feet away, and my adrenaline is going like a bus without brakes.

 

[DailyBlessings]

I never consider the taking of another human life an acceptable course of action. Necessary, maybe, but this situation doesn't sound like that. Why would I have an M-16 in my house to begin with? Seems to me that the only way that could be safe is if it were safely out of the kid's reach and unloaded- so what are the chances of my managing to get to it and use it, unless the intruder really isn't trying to murder me?

 

[Antoninus Verus]

I never consider the taking of another human life an acceptable course of action. Necessary, maybe, but this situation doesn't sound like that. Why would I have an M-16 in my house to begin with? Seems to me that the only way that could be safe is if it were safely out of the kid's reach and unloaded- so what are the chances of my managing to get to it and use it, unless the intruder really isn't trying to murder me?

The M16 thing was a dramatic overblow, I meant to convey the fact that no matter how many bullets I had, an intruder would get all of them no matter which way he was pointed if he came to my house because I refuse to sit there and play 20 Questions. I dont have the self control to shoot someone twice then ask "Ok now are you staying or going? Cause if your staying, Im gonna have to pop you again. But if your going, now would be the time." Especially when my wife and children are in this equation

 

[Lyric's Dad]

My question is how am I supposed to determine that someone is running away and not just running for cover so they can get thier own gun out? Especially if its late at night, my family is 100 feet away, and my adrenaline is going like a bus without brakes.

These are good questions. I wonder if the man had his lights on. If not, could he tell which way the man was running? These are some reasons why I just do not keep a gun. I feel like if I don't have one, I don't run the risk of having to use it. I used to have a pistol but then heard of a man that woke up to the sound of an intruder in his house. Stepped out into the hall and saw the person and opened fire. It turned out to be his teenage daughter who was staying at a friends but did not feel good in the middle of the night and had decided to come home. She died. I don't think I could make it through such a thing. I do believe in the right to bear arms, but I just do not choose to.

 

[James T]

What do you think? Should a homeowner be able to use as much force as he or she thinks is required to protect his or her own home and family?

How would you feel, as many have had the sorry experience to know, if the twelfth (or fist for that matter) shot was into the body of your adult (or teen child) who happened to return home late at night unexpectedly.

Your example assumes that person you shot was one you actually would have wanted to shoot and you don't even address the possibility ... chilling.

 

[Madcoil]

I'm sure a lot of innocent non-criminals wishing you only the best of health roam around in other people's houses in the middle of the night.

 

[dkara]

I don't own a gun and don't like them.


But if I had one, and an intruder came in I'd probably start shooting and not stop until I ran out of bullets. It's just be my FEAR response.

Then I guess, I'd be on Court TV and have the State paying for my bed and board.

 

[hannabl]

Since when did intrusion equal capital punishment? Even in the US, it hasn't gone that far.

If someone comes into you house, and you threaten the person with a gun, it's ok.
If the intruder tries to hurt your family, and you shoot them, it's self-defence.
If you see an intruder, immediately open fire at him, shooting him not once not twice but 12 times, it's murder.
If the last ten hit the intruder in the back, it's an execution.

Maybe some people belive that horror movies are true, but in reality a man doesn't get up after being shot twice in the chest, thus there's no need for the ten in the back.

You might survive a bullet, perhaps (?) even two but I doubt that you're able to get up and hurt anyone after that.

So do I think the court did the right thing convicting this person of murder? YES!

EDIT: Just realised that it doesn't say if he was convicted, so I'll reprase. Should he be convicted? Yes!

 

[12volt_man]

What do you think? Should a homeowner be able to use as much force as he or she thinks is required to protect his or her own home and family?

Absolutely. If somebody is in your house and you have reason to believe that they are a threat to you or your family, shoot them.

I say yes. If Im standing there at 3am and your comming through my front door and its apparent that I didnt invite you, Im not gonna stop to ask questions. I dont know what your there for or what you have in your pocket. I will use anything in my power to make sure you are not a threat, ESPECIALLY if my family is in the house. If I have an M16, Im gonna pull the trigger and Im not gonna let go untill the clip is empty and if your still twitching, Im gonna re-load.

That's not so good.

What you're talking about is running on emotion and that's probably going to put you and your family into more danger, not less.

Rather than just firing wildly at an intruder, you need to identify him and assess exactly how much of a threat this person is.

The reason I say this is because I had an incident one night, several years ago, where somebody broke into my house in the middle of the night.

I confronted them, drew on them, and called the police.

I could very easily have pulled the trigger on impulse, but I would have shot a hysterical, but harmless, young woman who was fleeing a domestic battery situation. She simply wasn't thinking clearly and was looking for a safe place to get away from her attacker.

The best weapon you have isn't what's strapped to your hip, it's what's between your ears.

If you have any doubt about what should be the correct thing to do, give the NRA a call and enroll in one of their safety courses.

And on that note, anyone who has a weapon in the house where children are present, should enroll their kids in the NRA's youth program.

 

[DailyBlessings]

The best weapon you have isn't what's strapped to your hip, it's what's between your ears.

That is excellent advice. I dislike carrying guns, but if one feels the need to do so... that is a good rule to remember.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

The M16 thing was a dramatic overblow, I meant to convey the fact that no matter how many bullets I had, an intruder would get all of them no matter which way he was pointed if he came to my house because I refuse to sit there and play 20 Questions. I dont have the self control to shoot someone twice then ask "Ok now are you staying or going? Cause if your staying, Im gonna have to pop you again. But if your going, now would be the time." Especially when my wife and children are in this equation

I don't question taking the intruder out if that is the judgment call, but I would not be inclined to 'empty the clip'. Good strategy would be to stop the one and reserve the rest for potential others... that also means don't finish the clip later.
It comes back to instilled training, the requirements and quality of training are somewhat light - the cost of freedom here in the U.S.

 

[MoonlessNight]

I think that a homeowner should have the right to use any force they deem necessary to rid themselves of an intruder, but I don't think that they should necessarily use it. If they are being threatened with a gun, then yes they should fire back immediately and use multiple shots if they have a gun out. You just risk to much not doing this, and if you only shoot once there's too much of a chance that the shooter will only be injured and will have a chance to fire back. They might even fire back if you kill them, right before they die. It's all a scary business, but if you have a gun your best option is to use it to try to get out of the situation. You shouldn't have to think of whether emptying your clip or the like is going to get you into trouble with the law, especially since you are likely scared out of your mind and it's hard to stop shooting when you are that scared anyway.

But if you do not know that the intruder is threatening you, I would not shoot them immediately. I would use a gun, but I prefer guns that intimidate as well as protect. Pump shotguns are especially good for this as everyone knows what that click click sound means, and they should know that in any home situation it will be impossible for you to miss. Of course by doing this you run the risk of getting shot if they have a gun, but most intruders aren't looking to kill anyone. The important thing to do is to turn on the lights and figure out who they are and what they are doing. Even if they are a robber or something it is better if they can be removed from your house without the use of violence. But if they do become threatening, you always can fall back on violence to protect yourself.

So I guess what I'm saying is, even though any intruder in your house may enable you to use lethal force, you shouldn't use it until you've identified that the situation is threatening. But you can still use it as a threat.

 

[James T]

I'm sure a lot of innocent non-criminals wishing you only the best of health roam around in other people's houses in the middle of the night.

I was thinking of an example in a program where the parents son returned from college late one night and was getting a feed from the fridge when his father shot him.

 

[Lokisdottir]

If you break into someone's home, you deserve whatever you get. The 12 shots might be excessive, but what was that guy doing, breaking into that house in the first place? I'm sure he wasn't there to have a nice chat over tea and biscuits.

There is absolutely no good reason to break into someone's house, unless it's your own house, nobody else is home and you can't find the spare key (which has happened to me more than once).

On the other hand, it's not always appropriate to shoot at an intruder. If you're so panicky that you'll unload a clip into your teenage daughter without realizing who it is, you probably shouldn't own a gun in the first place. I know it's frightening to think that somebody has broken into your home, but you should at least retain some composure.

 

[Antoninus Verus]

How would you feel, as many have had the sorry experience to know, if the twelfth (or fist for that matter) shot was into the body of your adult (or teen child) who happened to return home late at night unexpectedly.

Your example assumes that person you shot was one you actually would have wanted to shoot and you don't even address the possibility ... chilling.

That IS a possiblity, but someone should have the presence of mind to know "Ok my son/daughter/wife/husband isnt back so that is probably them" and be a little less inclined to open fire. But if you KNOW that your son/daughter/wife/husband is in thier bed asleep....

Since when did intrusion equal capital punishment? Even in the US, it hasn't gone that far.

Criminals do stupid things when they get caught. They do desperate things if they know they might go to jail. If I corner some guy in my house, I dont know what hes got in his pocket or what he'll do now that he knows Ive seen him. Is he going to try and kill me to keep me quiet? Or is he gonna run? Or is he going to pull out a gun and shoot me first? If I dont have definate answers that I like to those questions, Im gonna shoot.

That's not so good.

What you're talking about is running on emotion and that's probably going to put you and your family into more danger, not less.

I see your point, but its late at night, youve just woken up, your scared, you want to protect your family, those circumstances dont really...promote rational thought. Your case was an exception. But if you walk in and theres a guy holding your stereo and your front window is gone, its a pretty sure bet hes ripping you off.

If you break into someone's home, you deserve whatever you get. The 12 shots might be excessive, but what was that guy doing, breaking into that house in the first place? I'm sure he wasn't there to have a nice chat over tea and biscuits.

Agreed. If you break into my house, your going to or are planning to do one of a couple things

1. Relieve me of everything Ive worked my whole life for
2. Hurt my wife
3. Hurt my children
4. Hurt me

2, 3, and 4 are killing offenses in my view.

What puzzles me is why someone would be expected to take a chance. Some guy smashes my window and jumps inside, I dont know what he will do if I confront him. I dont know if hes got a loaded gun in his pocket. And if he IS armed, I dont know what he'll do with it. And I REALLY dont want to risk my life to find out. What if he kills me then kills my family to eliminate whitnesses? As far as I am concerned, the possibility is too great that an intruder might pose a threat to my life or my family therefore once I have identified that that person really has broken in, Im going to shoot.

 

[12volt_man]

I see your point, but its late at night, youve just woken up, your scared, you want to protect your family, those circumstances dont really...promote rational thought. Your case was an exception. But if you walk in and theres a guy holding your stereo and your front window is gone, its a pretty sure bet hes ripping you off.

This is precisely why I suggested that you get into an NRA safety course. You can learn how to react rationally, rather than emotionally.