Excerpt from: The Soul Winner

[ghs1994]

I don't know how many of you have or have read this book by Spurgeon, but I know he was a staunch Calvinist.

What do you make of this excerpt from one of his sermons?

"But here is mercy-these lost souls can be won. They are not hopelessly lost; not yet has God determined that they shall forever abide as they are. It is not yet said, 'He that is filthy, let him be filthy still.', but they are in the land of hope where mercy may reach them, for they are spoken of as capable of being won. They may yet be delievered, but the phrase hints that it will need all our efforts: 'He that winneth souls'.

I'm only curious of one thing: If all things concerning salvation are already set in stone, why does Spurgeon teach that they may be won? Why does he say that God has not yet determined their fate?

I only ask out of curiosity and not to start a debate. It always seems that the Calvinist believes that salvation of souls has already been set in stone and yet a staunch Calvinist says otherwise.

What are your thoughts?

 

[AndOne]

I haven't read this particular book by Spurgeon but he is probably referring to the elect specifically. If you apply it that way - it makes a whole lot more sense. Especially since it is Spurgeon who said it....

Spurgeon has written and preached so much on Calvinism that this particular inconsistency (if it is) really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Rick Otto]

perhaps he meant, "not yet has God determined that they shall forever abide as they are, AS FAR AS WE personaly KNOW.



It is not yet said, 'He that is filthy, let him be filthy still.',-about the entire race.

If they are "in a land of hope", it would be OUR hope.
It makes as much sense as being commanded to preach "to every creature".

And elsewhere, all our efforts are commanded to love God & our neighbor.

Picture your neighbors the way Hitler pictured real estate when he said, 'I don't want to posess ALL the land on earth, just my neighbor's!'

 

[arunma]

I don't know how many of you have or have read this book by Spurgeon, but I know he was a staunch Calvinist.

What do you make of this excerpt from one of his sermons?

"But here is mercy-these lost souls can be won. They are not hopelessly lost; not yet has God determined that they shall forever abide as they are. It is not yet said, 'He that is filthy, let him be filthy still.', but they are in the land of hope where mercy may reach them, for they are spoken of as capable of being won. They may yet be delievered, but the phrase hints that it will need all our efforts: 'He that winneth souls'.

I'm only curious of one thing: If all things concerning salvation are already set in stone, why does Spurgeon teach that they may be won? Why does he say that God has not yet determined their fate?

I only ask out of curiosity and not to start a debate. It always seems that the Calvinist believes that salvation of souls has already been set in stone and yet a staunch Calvinist says otherwise.

What are your thoughts?

Well, I as a Calvinist don't have any difficulty reading this. Yes, it is true that God ordains salvation by his sovereign hand. And it is this truth that encourages us all the more to preach the Gospel to these people so that they can be saved. Man is hopelessly sinful, and I know that by my own rhetorical skill, I do not have the ability to convince anyone of the truth of the Gospel. But God makes all things possible, so that sinful people can be saved by our preaching.

The immutable election of God's chosen people is really not the issue here. To give a simple example: God has ordained the length of my days on this earth, but that doesn't stop me from looking both ways before crossing the street.

 

[calmcoolandelected]

I don't know how many of you have or have read this book by Spurgeon, but I know he was a staunch Calvinist.

What do you make of this excerpt from one of his sermons?

"But here is mercy-these lost souls can be won. They are not hopelessly lost; not yet has God determined that they shall forever abide as they are. It is not yet said, 'He that is filthy, let him be filthy still.', but they are in the land of hope where mercy may reach them, for they are spoken of as capable of being won. They may yet be delievered, but the phrase hints that it will need all our efforts: 'He that winneth souls'.

I'm only curious of one thing: If all things concerning salvation are already set in stone, why does Spurgeon teach that they may be won? Why does he say that God has not yet determined their fate?

I only ask out of curiosity and not to start a debate. It always seems that the Calvinist believes that salvation of souls has already been set in stone and yet a staunch Calvinist says otherwise.

What are your thoughts?

Sounds like he is telling folks to evangelize! The elect are "lost" until the Holy Spirit calls and regenerates.

CC&E

 

[ghs1994]

So is it possible for anyone who is not elect to be saved?

I'm only curious because Spurgeon taught in his book, "A Defense of Calvinism", that it was possible for a Calvinist to not be saved and for an Arminian to be saved. The biggest difference dealt with doctrine more than salvation.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[ghs1994]

One other question that popped into my mind.....

Is it possible for elect in their unsaved state to die before they become born again Christians? If so, what happens to them?

 

[McWilliams]

So is it possible for anyone who is not elect to be saved?

I'm only curious because Spurgeon taught in his book, "A Defense of Calvinism", that it was possible for a Calvinist to not be saved and for an Arminian to be saved. The biggest difference dealt with doctrine more than salvation.

What are your thoughts on this?

God isnt interested in our labels. He reads hearts. He alone know who the elect are. They're not marked, dont have a big 'E' on their back! Whether a person calls themself 'calvinist' or whether we may call them 'armenian' is of no consequence to God and the work He does, thankfully; therefore we cant mess up what He has going on!!
I'm reading this same book and have encountered a comment or two that I question but all in all it is good and I figured the questions may be in my own understanding of what he is saying!
I do think that if everyone just forgot all the business about being 'elect' and got on with living for the Lord and sharing the gospel with the lost we'd be way far ahead!

 

[ghs1994]

God isnt interested in our labels. He reads hearts. He alone know who the elect are. They're not marked, dont have a big 'E' on their back! Whether a person calls themself 'calvinist' or whether we may call them 'armenian' is of no consequence to God and the work He does, thankfully; therefore we cant mess up what He has going on!!
I'm reading this same book and have encountered a comment or two that I question but all in all it is good and I figured the questions may be in my own understanding of what he is saying!
I do think that if everyone just forgot all the business about being 'elect' and got on with living for the Lord and sharing the gospel with the lost we'd be way far ahead!

Wow!!!! Preach on sister!!!! You sound like my pastor from the other night when I was discussing this particular thing with him. I totally agree that we can spend so much time trying to figure out certain things rather than going out and doing what God has commissioned us to do. I love your response. Thanks. It's quite an encouragement to me.

 

[bradfordl]

I do think that if everyone just forgot all the business about being 'elect' and got on with living for the Lord and sharing the gospel with the lost we'd be way far ahead!

I don't know, McW. Election is plainly taught in scripture. There must be some good reason the Lord wanted us to understand it. Part of why we need to know it is so that the true and proper motivation to evangelize is maintained. That is to obey and glorify God as vessels used by Him in the redemption of His people. When election is forgotten, the motivation often dissolves into seeking glory for oneself and the idea that if we aren't attractive enough in our presentation then someone may not get saved that otherwise would. That ascribes to us authority that belongs to God.

 

[ghs1994]

I don't know, McW. Election is plainly taught in scripture. There must be some good reason the Lord wanted us to understand it. Part of why we need to know it is so that the true and proper motivation to evangelize is maintained. That is to obey and glorify God as vessels used by Him in the redemption of His people. When election is forgotten, the motivation often dissolves into seeking glory for oneself and the idea that if we aren't attractive enough in our presentation then someone may not get saved that otherwise would. That ascribes to us authority that belongs to God.

I know I don't speak for her, but I believe that we forget about the simplicity of the message. If we would just go and preach Christ, there would not be a need for debates about endless doctrines that pursue knowledge for discussion and disagreement rather than souls. We should simply trust God to draw those He has elected (not sure yet what I believe about election concerning people) thru the preaching of the Gospel of Christ.

We may not have anything to do with the regeneration process, but we absolutely have something to do with their salvation because God chose to use us and since we as Christians are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ, how effective will we be if our lives reflect the world instead of Him? Who can be effective in winning souls if their lives don't reflect what they say they believe?

I understand the concern for motivation, but the bible tells us that one plants and one waters, but God gives the increase. All glory to God for the salvation of souls...I am only a vessel He chose to use....but we do have a part...still all glory is His because ultimately, He is the One who does the saving.

 

[McWilliams]

Oh wait a minute! I absolutely believe in 'election'!
Please read my post once more! My thoughts are that there is much confusion about some who continually harp on who is and/or who is not elect that they forego giving a clear sound witness to everyone, which is what we're commanded to do!
Why go on and on about who is or not elect when our command is to repent! Just do it! Discussing 'election' with an unsaved person is confusing and they begin to think about whether they're 'elect' or not, rather than whether they're lost or not!
When we share the gospel we tell it clear and simple and hopefully they will see their sin and repent! If and when that takes place then they, and we, have assurance that they are most likely of the 'elect'; unless that is they are insincere and are a stoney ground 'convert'!
Do you not agree with this?
A lost person needs to hear the gospel, not all the points of the TULIP. When regenerate their thirst will drive them to fill their cup with doctrine!
We share the gospel and passionately urge them to repent! The rest is up to our Lord and Savior!

 

[ghs1994]

Oh wait a minute! I absolutely believe in 'election'!
Please read my post once more! My thoughts are that there is much confusion about some who continually harp or who is and/or who is not elect that they forego giving a clear sound witness to everyone, which is what we're commanded to do!
Why go on and on about who is or not elect when our command is to repent! Just do it! Discussing 'election' with an unsaved person is confusing and they begin to think about whether they're 'elect' or not, rather than whether they're lost or not!
When we share the gospel we tell it clear and simple and hopefully they will see their sin and repent! If and when that takes place then they, and we, have assurance that they are most likely of the 'elect'; unless that is they are insincere and are a stoney ground 'convert'!
Do you not agree with this?
A lost person needs to hear the gospel, not all the points of the TULIP. When regenerate their thirst will drive them to fill their cup with doctrine!
We share the gospel and passionately urge them to repent! The rest is up to our Lord and Savior!

You do a much better job of saying what I was trying to say in the last post. I think sometimes we can get so technical that the simplicity of the message goes away. I still think the five points are more damaging than helpful. In preaching the Gospel, it must be focused on the sinner and the free gift of God.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Oh wait a minute! I absolutely believe in 'election'!
Please read my post once more! My thoughts are that there is much confusion about some who continually harp or who is and/or who is not elect that they forego giving a clear sound witness to everyone, which is what we're commanded to do!
Why go on and on about who is or not elect when our command is to repent! Just do it! Discussing 'election' with an unsaved person is confusing and they begin to think about whether they're 'elect' or not, rather than whether they're lost or not!
When we share the gospel we tell it clear and simple and hopefully they will see their sin and repent! If and when that takes place then they, and we, have assurance that they are most likely of the 'elect'; unless that is they are insincere and are a stoney ground 'convert'!
Do you not agree with this?
A lost person needs to hear the gospel, not all the points of the TULIP. When regenerate their thirst will drive them to fill their cup with doctrine!
We share the gospel and passionately urge them to repent! The rest is up to our Lord and Savior!

Dear McWilliams,

You have once again hit the nail on the head. Some Calvinists (hopefully only a small minority) do seem to confuse the doctrine of predestination and election with the Gospel.

We are called to preach the good news that Christ came to save sinners and we're call people to repent and believe on Christ as Saviour and Lord.

The Doctrines of Grace are meat to nourish and strengthen those who know Christ as Lord. These truths are not for the unbeliever. They wonderful things to know and we use them to disciple those who have repented but they are not tools of evangelism.

The Gospel is the message of salvation in Christ. Election only a small part of what those who know Christ should be learning in order that we may know and do what so ever the Lord commands.

Coram Deo,
Kenith