Except Those Days Be Shortened

[Kokavkrystallos]

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
- Matthew 24:21-22

We see here Jesus describing a time that will be worse than any other time previously, and worse than anything that ever will be. This does not describe the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 or any other event in our history. According to this, it will even be worse than the flood. And these are the days that could very well be not too far ahead.

Luke 21:24-28,
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Here we see a specific shift from the Destruction of the temple and the scattering of the Jews among the nations, to a time when Israel should return to their land, which was 1948 for Israel becoming a nation once more. We are now in that portion of time before the return of the LORD, the Son of Man who will come in a cloud with power and great glory. We should most certainly be looking up because these things have been "beginning to come to pass" for awhile now. The convergence and escalation of things is upon us.

Daniel 12:1 also speaks of this time, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

Isaiah 24:1-6 is an ominous warning, and not to be taken lightly, nor as an allegory, or anything symbolic. This is plain language of the prophet speaking the Word of the LORD Yahweh concerning what will be fall in the last days:
"Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.
The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

Isaiah 24 happens to coincide with 2 Peter 3, and I'm going to give the whole chapter here, as it is all applicable to this subject. I will highlight the relevant parts that coincide with Isaiah 24:
"This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."

We see these days fast approaching. We do not know when all this will go down, but one thing is certain: it could come up on us overnight, just like a Pearl Harbor in 1941, or a 9/11 - without warning. It'll be a surprise to many. I won't be surprised at all. Every time I hear a siren and there's no storms I say "Nuclear war! We have 28 to 30 minutes!" But I'm calm about it. And so far the sirens have been either a noontime thing, or a test.

Luke 21 is excellent. I go to Luke as much as I do Matthew 24. Most folk go to Matthew 24 for Jesus discussion of end times. All Scripture on end times is important, and there's lots of it. Look at Luke 21:34-36,
"And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

See that? A snare. It will be a surprise, especially to unbelievers. And where it says you be counted worthy to escape all these things may or may not mean we are taken before. It could mean we will be delivered from these things whether by divine protection or even by death, as we are delivered unto the LORD and shall be in His presence. Here is where I would admonish from mark 13, which is the only one of the 3 gospels that records this in detail,
Mark 13:32-37,
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

Jesus says Watch. He says Watch again. He says Watch a third time. He don't say speculate about when, but says Watch. I'll be the first to admit I have no clue when the rapture is, if it's before the great tribulation Jesus talked about, or during it, or towards the very end of it. And no one knows. If you say you know, the Bible says here you don't know!

Best to hope and pray Jesus come soon, and He most surely can, but it's also wise to be strong in the LORD and the power of His might, and to be prepared in the event real serious persecution arises and Jesus tarries. One thing we know, He has promised to shorten those days for the sake of His elect.
Romans 9:28,
"For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth."

Revelation 1:7-8,
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 22:7, 12, 20,
"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

 

[RandyPNW]

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
- Matthew 24:21-22

We see here Jesus describing a time that will be worse than any other time previously, and worse than anything that ever will be. This does not describe the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 or any other event in our history. According to this, it will even be worse than the flood. And these are the days that could very well be not too far ahead.

I totally disagree. This "great tribulation" or "great distress" could only have been referring to the Roman onslaught of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was the worst punishment in terms of time of any punishment of Jews in history. By contrast, the Babylonian Judgment lasted only 70 years. The Wilderness wandering took only 40 years. Defeats suffered under enemy kings lasted usually less than a generation.

The Jewish Punishment of the entire NT age, sometimes called the "Jewish Diaspora," is the longest punishment the Jewish People have ever endured by far. As such, it is a *great* tribulation.

Some Christians think that the "Great Tribulation" refers to Christian persecution because in addressing this general time period Jesus mentioned that Jews would persecute Christians. But that is *why* the Jews were thrown, by God, into an age-long tribulation, precisely because they persecuted Christians. The "Great Tribulation" was therefore a *punishment.*

The 70 AD fall of Jerusalem to the Romans was only the beginning of this great Jewish Punishment. By the way, Jesus specifically identified this "great tribulation" as a "Jewish Punishment!" So it could not refer to the Reign of Antichrist.

The Jewish Punishment merely started in 70 AD. In fact the entire context for the Olivet Discourse was set with Jesus' reference to the fall of the Temple, which was, of course, in 70 AD. And Jesus identified the terminal point of the "Great Tribulation," or Jewish Punishment, as being his 2nd Coming at the end of the age. So it encompassed the totality of the NT age, spanning from 70 AD to Jesus' Return.

The signs, or "birth pangs," leading up to this event was, as Jesus said, only the beginning signs of the ultimate fall of the Temple. It would be heralded by an increase of sin in Israel and in the world. There would be rumors of war, presaging the ultimate fall of Jerusalem. There would be initial signs of God's wrath, such as famines and earthquakes, and signs in the heavens.

But this all happened immediately before the Roman Army, the "Abomination of Desolation," appeared on the horizon, warning Jesus' disciples to flee for the hills. Jesus encouraged his disciples to look up to heaven, to God, for their guidance so that when the time came they would be ready to flee.

 

[AlexB23]

I totally disagree. This "great tribulation" or "great distress" could only have been referring to the Roman onslaught of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was the worst punishment in terms of time of any punishment of Jews in history. By contrast, the Babylonian Judgment lasted only 70 years. The Wilderness wandering took only 40 years. Defeats suffered under enemy kings lasted usually less than a generation.

The Jewish Punishment of the entire NT age, sometimes called the "Jewish Diaspora," is the longest punishment the Jewish People have ever endured by far. As such, it is a *great* tribulation.

Some Christians think that the "Great Tribulation" refers to Christian persecution because in addressing this general time period Jesus mentioned that Jews would persecute Christians. But that is *why* the Jews were thrown, by God, into an age-long tribulation, precisely because they persecuted Christians. The "Great Tribulation" was therefore a *punishment.*

The 70 AD fall of Jerusalem to the Romans was only the beginning of this great Jewish Punishment. By the way, Jesus specifically identified this "great tribulation" as a "Jewish Punishment!" So it could not refer to the Reign of Antichrist.

The Jewish Punishment merely started in 70 AD. In fact the entire context for the Olivet Discourse was set with Jesus' reference to the fall of the Temple, which was, of course, in 70 AD. And Jesus identified the terminal point of the "Great Tribulation," or Jewish Punishment, as being his 2nd Coming at the end of the age. So it encompassed the totality of the NT age, spanning from 70 AD to Jesus' Return.

The signs, or "birth pangs," leading up to this event was, as Jesus said, only the beginning signs of the ultimate fall of the Temple. It would be heralded by an increase of sin in Israel and in the world. There would be rumors of war, presaging the ultimate fall of Jerusalem. There would be initial signs of God's wrath, such as famines and earthquakes, and signs in the heavens.

But this all happened immediately before the Roman Army, the "Abomination of Desolation," appeared on the horizon, warning Jesus' disciples to flee for the hills. Jesus encouraged his disciples to look up to heaven, to God, for their guidance so that when the time came they would be ready to flee.

Well, say the world ends in 2050 just for kicks and grins (we do not know the date). That means the time from 70 AD to 2050 AD are the end times, but we might be in the very end of this end times.

While we do not know when the world will end, the rhetoric pushed by some individuals (politicians and companies) are leading up to The Tribulation before Christ's return.

 

[Guojing]

I totally disagree. This "great tribulation" or "great distress" could only have been referring to the Roman onslaught of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was the worst punishment in terms of time of any punishment of Jews in history. By contrast, the Babylonian Judgment lasted only 70 years. The Wilderness wandering took only 40 years. Defeats suffered under enemy kings lasted usually less than a generation.

The Jewish Punishment of the entire NT age, sometimes called the "Jewish Diaspora," is the longest punishment the Jewish People have ever endured by far. As such, it is a *great* tribulation.

Some Christians think that the "Great Tribulation" refers to Christian persecution because in addressing this general time period Jesus mentioned that Jews would persecute Christians. But that is *why* the Jews were thrown, by God, into an age-long tribulation, precisely because they persecuted Christians. The "Great Tribulation" was therefore a *punishment.*

The 70 AD fall of Jerusalem to the Romans was only the beginning of this great Jewish Punishment. By the way, Jesus specifically identified this "great tribulation" as a "Jewish Punishment!" So it could not refer to the Reign of Antichrist.

The Jewish Punishment merely started in 70 AD. In fact the entire context for the Olivet Discourse was set with Jesus' reference to the fall of the Temple, which was, of course, in 70 AD. And Jesus identified the terminal point of the "Great Tribulation," or Jewish Punishment, as being his 2nd Coming at the end of the age. So it encompassed the totality of the NT age, spanning from 70 AD to Jesus' Return.

The signs, or "birth pangs," leading up to this event was, as Jesus said, only the beginning signs of the ultimate fall of the Temple. It would be heralded by an increase of sin in Israel and in the world. There would be rumors of war, presaging the ultimate fall of Jerusalem. There would be initial signs of God's wrath, such as famines and earthquakes, and signs in the heavens.

But this all happened immediately before the Roman Army, the "Abomination of Desolation," appeared on the horizon, warning Jesus' disciples to flee for the hills. Jesus encouraged his disciples to look up to heaven, to God, for their guidance so that when the time came they would be ready to flee.

Are you a preterist? Christ has already returned to Earth and those living on Earth have seen him already?

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

I totally disagree. This "great tribulation" or "great distress" could only have been referring to the Roman onslaught of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was the worst punishment in terms of time of any punishment of Jews in history. By contrast, the Babylonian Judgment lasted only 70 years. The Wilderness wandering took only 40 years. Defeats suffered under enemy kings lasted usually less than a generation.

The Jewish Punishment of the entire NT age, sometimes called the "Jewish Diaspora," is the longest punishment the Jewish People have ever endured by far. As such, it is a *great* tribulation.

Some Christians think that the "Great Tribulation" refers to Christian persecution because in addressing this general time period Jesus mentioned that Jews would persecute Christians. But that is *why* the Jews were thrown, by God, into an age-long tribulation, precisely because they persecuted Christians. The "Great Tribulation" was therefore a *punishment.*

The 70 AD fall of Jerusalem to the Romans was only the beginning of this great Jewish Punishment. By the way, Jesus specifically identified this "great tribulation" as a "Jewish Punishment!" So it could not refer to the Reign of Antichrist.

The Jewish Punishment merely started in 70 AD. In fact the entire context for the Olivet Discourse was set with Jesus' reference to the fall of the Temple, which was, of course, in 70 AD. And Jesus identified the terminal point of the "Great Tribulation," or Jewish Punishment, as being his 2nd Coming at the end of the age. So it encompassed the totality of the NT age, spanning from 70 AD to Jesus' Return.

The signs, or "birth pangs," leading up to this event was, as Jesus said, only the beginning signs of the ultimate fall of the Temple. It would be heralded by an increase of sin in Israel and in the world. There would be rumors of war, presaging the ultimate fall of Jerusalem. There would be initial signs of God's wrath, such as famines and earthquakes, and signs in the heavens.

But this all happened immediately before the Roman Army, the "Abomination of Desolation," appeared on the horizon, warning Jesus' disciples to flee for the hills. Jesus encouraged his disciples to look up to heaven, to God, for their guidance so that when the time came they would be ready to flee.

I cannot agree with that. Sounds like Preterism teaching, that some or all the events of Matthew 24, mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation took place in the first century AD.
6 Million Jews were murdered by Hitlers regime between 1939-1945. He would have kept going to with his ovens and gas chambers and horrific experiments if his days hadn't been cut short by Allied fighters. World War 2 in itself was a far greater 'tribulation" than Titus conquering Jerusalem.
Jesus is very clear in the Gospels and Revelation that He will physically return to earth in power, and that this will occur during a time of great distress upon the whole world, yet at the same time people will still be working and marrying and giving in marriage as if everything is normal, as in the days of Noah.
What Isaiah speaks about, and what Peter speaks about regarding the judgment by fire, this has yet to occur, and we've only had small tastes of what is to come with the wars during the 1900s, such as Tokyo being firebombed, or the nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

But as dreadful and horrific as these things, they are small in comparison to what will come. You can imagine the people who were alive in Tokyo and other Japanese cities thought it was the end of the world. There were probably some Christians there who may have well thought the tribulation was upon them, and perhaps the Emperor was the antichrist.

When dealing with Matthew 24 and the companion chapters in Mark and Luke you have dual prophecy at play. It shifts from destruction of temple in 70 AD, to the end time events taking place now and what will be in the near future.

When Jesus said this, and the disciples asked Him questions, note there are 2, actually 3 questions:
"There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:2-3)

1) When shall THESE THINGS be (that is, the temple stones thrown down)
2) What shall be the sign of your coming, and the end of the world (Separate even, and these 2 questions go together)

Jesus speaks in general for several more verses, then says this, which in no way was accomplished by 70 AD,
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (24:13-14)

Verses 15-20 are all about Jerusalem specifically, then He shifts gears:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

First, Jesus did not return "Immediately after the tribulation" of AD 70. Nor did stars fall from heaven and the powers of heaven be shaken. The sun and moon were temporarily darkened by the smoke of the fires, but that does not fit the whole verse.
We also have the parable of the fig tree (Israel) as a tender branch, putting forth her leaves in 1948.
That Israel is the fig tree is borne out by Hosea 9:10,
"I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time"
Jeremiah 8:13,
" I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them."
Jeremiah 24 likens Israel to both good and bad figs.

When Jesus says "This generation shall not pass away till all these things come to pass" He is referring to the Hebrew race, the people, the nation. They were scattered, yes, but now they are reborn.
Isaiah 66:8,
"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

This is perhaps the biggest sign of all. Wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes in divers places can come and go: they can intensify, they can ebb. Ezekiel 36 and 37 have both come to pass: return from Babylon, and return from everywhere in the 1900s (and Jews are still returning to their homeland today)

Isaiah 43:5-6,
"Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;"

This should get one all excited, and should serve as encouragement to live holy lives before the LORD, for we do not know when He shall appear, but when He does we best be ready and not be caught sleeping, or without oil, or going about in worldly ways.
Hasten His return as Peter writes, looking for and hasting the coming of the day of God, even with the heavens being on fire.

Fear not these things, for the LORD is with the. Turn into Him with all thine heart.

Isaiah 24:15,
" Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea."

 

[AlexB23]

This is perhaps the biggest sign of all. Wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes in diverse places can come and go: they can intensify, they can ebb. Ezekiel 36 and 37 have both come to pass: return from Babylon, and return from everywhere in the 1900s (and Jews are still returning to their homeland today)

Isaiah 43:5-6,
"Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;"

This should get one all excited, and should serve as encouragement to live holy lives before the LORD, for we do not know when He shall appear, but when He does we best be ready and not be caught sleeping, or without oil, or going about in worldly ways.
Hasten His return as Peter writes, looking for and hasting the coming of the day of God, even with the heavens being on fire.

Fear not these things, for the LORD is with the. Turn into Him with all thine heart.

Isaiah 24:15,
" Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea."

Yep, in fact, Musk's AI spread a rumor about the Israel-Hamas war in April 2024.

Elon Musk's Grok AI Pushes False News Stories About Indian Election, Iran Strike

X users were surprised to see that Prime Minister Modi was 'ousted' in a 'shocking turn of events.' But it was a fake headline spun up by a chatbot, as was a similar story about Iran hitting Tel Aviv.

www.pcmag.com

 

[RandyPNW]

I cannot agree with that. Sounds like Preterism teaching, that some or all the events of Matthew 24, mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation took place in the first century AD.

Yes, that's normally what I hear as a rebuttal because with the rise of modern Futurism there is less interest in historically-fulfilled prophecy. But of course, there are many prophecies that have been fulfilled in history without sacrificing any sense of a future Antichrist or a future salvation of national Israel.

In reality, most of the Church Fathers held to this version of the Olivet Discourse. Only a couple of Fathers, such as Irenaeus and his disciple Hippolytus held to a "Futurist" version of Daniel's 70th Week and the Abomination of Desolation. And the Church Fathers were not "Preterists"--it had not even been invented yet!

6 Million Jews were murdered by Hitlers regime between 1939-1945.

I argued that the "Great Tribulation" was viewed as "great" not because of the intensity of the suffering in a single battle, but rather, because it was a "punishment" lasting from the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD to the Return of Christ at the end of the age.

When dealing with Matthew 24 and the companion chapters in Mark and Luke you have dual prophecy at play. It shifts from destruction of temple in 70 AD, to the end time events taking place now and what will be in the near future.

A "dual prophecy?" Do you speak about an event in "dualities?"

When Jesus said this, and the disciples asked Him questions, note there are 2, actually 3 questions:
"There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:2-3)

1) When shall THESE THINGS be (that is, the temple stones thrown down)
2) What shall be the sign of your coming, and the end of the world (Separate even, and these 2 questions go together)

Jesus speaks in general for several more verses, then says this, which in no way was accomplished by 70 AD,
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Jesus' focus was on the destruction of the Temple in his own generation. Jesus' disciples wanted to know if and how this related to Israel's hope of national salvation? In other words, how could Jesus say Israel would be destroyed when the Prophets had spoken of Israel's final salvation when "never again" would they suffer destruction.

Salvation, then, was dependent not upon when the nation would be saved, but rather, upon endurance in faith in any and all circumstances, whether the nation was in Diaspora or in the process of national restoration.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

The judgment of Jesus' generation would appear to evolve as in a natural national progression. Their Messiah, after all, had come, and he would initiate his Church. But then the very generation that rejected Jesus would suffer this judgment. And it did happen, 40 years after the Jewish People had rejected their Messiah.

First, Jesus did not return "Immediately after the tribulation" of AD 70.

You seem to have missed the fact, in Luke, that the 70 AD judgment was to lead to a great exile of Israel into many nations. That Diaspora has not yet fully ended. Jesus will come when Israel's "wanderings" have come to a final end, at his Return.

When Jesus says "This generation shall not pass away till all these things come to pass" He is referring to the Hebrew race, the people, the nation.

No, Jesus was referring to his own generation, within the time of his own disciples who had been with him. In other places, he identified that "generation" as the one that rejected him. It was not Jews in all times and in all places--not at all!

You're welcome to your own exposition of the Olivet Discourse--it is a popular one in this time when Dispensational Futurism reigns, particularly in America. But it makes a mess of what the passage actually says, in my opinion. That's why I changed my view personally.

 

[RandyPNW]

Are you a preterist? Christ has already returned to Earth and those living on Earth have seen him already?

No, I'm not a Preterist. The historical view of Israel's Diaspora has been lost to many Christian Futurists. They hold to the Dispensationalist version of Futurism, since Dispensationalism has been a primary impetus in the return to Futurism in the modern era.

I'm not a Dispensationalist but do consider myself a Futurist inasmuch as I believe in a future version of the book of Revelation. I believe in a future Antichrist and in a future Salvation of National Israel.

The early Church Fathers were believers in the historical version of the Olivet Discourse and the 70th Week of Dan 9. Only Irenaeus and his disciple Hippolytus promoted the Futurist version of Daniel's 70th Week and the Abomination of Desolation.

There may have been another--not sure exactly how many there were? But most were clearly believers that the Olivet Discourse was largely concerned with the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, followed by a great exodus of Jews into all nations.

 

[AlexB23]

No, I'm not a Preterist. The historical view of Israel's Diaspora has been lost to many Christian Futurists. They hold to the Dispensationalist version of Futurism, since Dispensationalism has been a primary impetus in the return to Futurism in the modern era.

I'm not a Dispensationalist but do consider myself a Futurist inasmuch as I believe in a future version of the book of Revelation. I believe in a future Antichrist and in a future Salvation of National Israel.

The early Church Fathers were believers in the historical version of the Olivet Discourse and the 70th Week of Dan 9. Only Irenaeus and his disciple Hippolytus promoted the Futurist version of Daniel's 70th Week and the Abomination of Desolation.

There may have been another--not sure exactly how many there were? But most were clearly believers that the Olivet Discourse was largely concerned with the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, followed by a great exodus of Jews into all nations.

Dang, over complicating things bro. The Bible does NOT change.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Yes, that's normally what I hear as a rebuttal because with the rise of modern Futurism there is less interest in historically-fulfilled prophecy. But of course, there are many prophecies that have been fulfilled in history without sacrificing any sense of a future Antichrist or a future salvation of national Israel.

In reality, most of the Church Fathers held to this version of the Olivet Discourse. Only a couple of Fathers, such as Irenaeus and his disciple Hippolytus held to a "Futurist" version of Daniel's 70th Week and the Abomination of Desolation. And the Church Fathers were not "Preterists"--it had not even been invented yet!

I argued that the "Great Tribulation" was viewed as "great" not because of the intensity of the suffering in a single battle, but rather, because it was a "punishment" lasting from the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD to the Return of Christ at the end of the age.

A "dual prophecy?" Do you speak about an event in "dualities?"

Jesus' focus was on the destruction of the Temple in his own generation. Jesus' disciples wanted to know if and how this related to Israel's hope of national salvation? In other words, how could Jesus say Israel would be destroyed when the Prophets had spoken of Israel's final salvation when "never again" would they suffer destruction.

Salvation, then, was dependent not upon when the nation would be saved, but rather, upon endurance in faith in any and all circumstances, whether the nation was in Diaspora or in the process of national restoration.

The judgment of Jesus' generation would appear to evolve as in a natural national progression. Their Messiah, after all, had come, and he would initiate his Church. But then the very generation that rejected Jesus would suffer this judgment. And it did happen, 40 years after the Jewish People had rejected their Messiah.

You seem to have missed the fact, in Luke, that the 70 AD judgment was to lead to a great exile of Israel into many nations. That Diaspora has not yet fully ended. Jesus will come when Israel's "wanderings" have come to a final end, at his Return.

No, Jesus was referring to his own generation, within the time of his own disciples who had been with him. In other places, he identified that "generation" as the one that rejected him. It was not Jews in all times and in all places--not at all!

You're welcome to your own exposition of the Olivet Discourse--it is a popular one in this time when Dispensational Futurism reigns, particularly in America. But it makes a mess of what the passage actually says, in my opinion. That's why I changed my view personally.

Justyn Martyr also. But these also hold that Daniels 70th week is a yet future even, whereas it can also point to the time of Christ from His baptism till His crucifixion, and from the resurrection to the time the church scattered after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7.

You do not believe there will be cataclysmic wars, even nuclear war, and much terrible judgment prior to the establishment of the millennium? remember, Revelation was written around 95 AD which is 25 years after the Jerusalem siege and destruction of temple.

 

[Guojing]

No, I'm not a Preterist. The historical view of Israel's Diaspora has been lost to many Christian Futurists. They hold to the Dispensationalist version of Futurism, since Dispensationalism has been a primary impetus in the return to Futurism in the modern era.

I'm not a Dispensationalist but do consider myself a Futurist inasmuch as I believe in a future version of the book of Revelation. I believe in a future Antichrist and in a future Salvation of National Israel.

The early Church Fathers were believers in the historical version of the Olivet Discourse and the 70th Week of Dan 9. Only Irenaeus and his disciple Hippolytus promoted the Futurist version of Daniel's 70th Week and the Abomination of Desolation.

There may have been another--not sure exactly how many there were? But most were clearly believers that the Olivet Discourse was largely concerned with the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, followed by a great exodus of Jews into all nations.

If you believed Daniel 70th week is sometime at AD 70, then means Christ has already landed on the Mount of Olives around that time as well? Zechariah 14:4

 

[RandyPNW]

Dang, over complicating things bro. The Bible does NOT change.

I never said the Bible changed.

 

[RandyPNW]

If you believed Daniel 70th week is sometime at AD 70, then means Christ has already landed on the Mount of Olives around that time as well? Zechariah 14:4

Not at all. The Church Fathers believed that Daniel's 70th Week was fulfilled around the time of Christ's death and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. And they did *not* believe Jesus returned at that time. Nor do I believe that.

Zechariah 14.4 has nothing at all to do with Daniel's 70th Week. It has to do with the time of the 2nd Coming of Christ. Daniel's 70th Week was fulfilled as a Half-Week at the time Christ was cut off. That's when the Roman leadership caused Temple offerings to cease, or to be of no value. My view.

The destruction of the Temple by the Romans was merely the completion of a process that began when the Roman governor "cut off" Christ. That's when animal sacrifices lost all value to God, when the one for whom they had been offered had been rejected by the Jews and murdered.

 

[AlexB23]

I never said the Bible changed.

"Future version of Revelation". Umm, that sounds like a change, bro.

 

[RandyPNW]

"Future version of Revelation". Umm, that sounds like a change, bro.

"Sounds like" and "is" are 2 radically different ideas, from my pov.

 

[AlexB23]

"Sounds like" and "is" are 2 radically different ideas, from my pov.

True. So, can you explain a "Future version of Revelation"?


This is why I do not like studying the end times, cos no one agrees on the eschatology.

 

[Guojing]

Zechariah 14.4 has nothing at all to do with Daniel's 70th Week. It has to do with the time of the 2nd Coming of Christ. Daniel's 70th Week was fulfilled as a Half-Week at the time Christ was cut off. That's when the Roman leadership caused Temple offerings to cease, or to be of no value. My view.

So what you meant is that there is still a second half of Daniel's 70th week that is in the future?

 

[RandyPNW]

So what you meant is that there is still a second half of Daniel's 70th week that is in the future?

No, I'm saying that 70 Weeks were predicted to anticipate the coming work of Messiah, and that the 70th Week was indicated to last for only half it's time, namely about 3.5 years. The 70th Week was interrupted by the termination of Temple offerings. That is not explained, but looking back we can see that offerings were delegitimized at the point where the Roman authority had Christ killed.

The prophecy did not say that there would be 490 years until Christ's work was completed (see Dan 9.24). What it said is that there would be 70 *weeks,* indicating that once the 70th Week had begun, the prophecy could be fulfilled in less than a full week.

 

[Guojing]

No, I'm saying that 70 Weeks were predicted to anticipate the coming work of Messiah, and that the 70th Week was indicated to last for only half it's time, namely about 3.5 years. The 70th Week was interrupted by the termination of Temple offerings. That is not explained, but looking back we can see that offerings were delegitimized at the point where the Roman authority had Christ killed.

The prophecy did not say that there would be 490 years until Christ's work was completed (see Dan 9.24). What it said is that there would be 70 *weeks,* indicating that once the 70th Week had begun, the prophecy could be fulfilled in less than a full week.

So there was no second coming of Christ after Daniel's 70th week.

Is that what you believe in?

 

[RandyPNW]

So there was no second coming of Christ after Daniel's 70th week.

Is that what you believe in?

Right, there was no 2nd Coming of Christ after Daniel's 70th Week. That Week was completed as a Half-Week in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. He was "cut off" by the Roman governor, who was complying with the Jewish mob who wanted Jesus put to death.

The 70 Weeks prophecy was designed to be fulfilled in the 6 things mentioned in Dan 9.24, describing what Christ's work would be. And then, following the completion of the 70 Weeks, the Temple and Jerusalem would be destroyed by the "Abomination of Desolation," who were the "people of the prince to come," namely the Roman Army.

Jesus described this perfectly in Luke's version. Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies, and then desolated. This was, in the other synoptic Gospels, the "Abomination of Desolation."