Examining Conspiracy theories about Covid19

[ZNP]

One example
Mike Pompeo says there's 'enormous evidence' COVID-19 originated in a Chinese lab even though intelligence officials have said there's none
2nd example
A Baltimore church defies virus order but few are coming

In my understanding for a conspiracy to work they want to make merchandise of you. Nero keeping the fire department away while homes burn so that he can then buy the land up at a fraction of the cost. He had tried to buy the land but the owners wouldn't sell. After the fire he got it at a fraction of the cost.

So is there an opportunity for someone to make money here, that would be one leg to the table. The second leg, do they have the ability to orchestrate a worldwide closure of business? In Nero's case he controlled the fire department, so he had both the motive and the means to do the deed.

Third, this potential "Nero" would also have to have the ability to make and spread the virus. So you have two possible choices, the virus is no worse than the flu yet this mysterious group are able to convince the entire world to shut down. Seems absurd. Or, the virus is worse than the flu and this mysterious group manufactured it and spread it.

So if you are going to go with a conspiracy theory it must fit all three points.

Another theory could be that Coronavirus was not created by anyone, it just happened, but this mysterious group are opportunists, waiting for this virus to come along. However, this ruins the whole idea that the threat of the virus is not real.

 

[Radagast]

One example
Mike Pompeo says there's 'enormous evidence' COVID-19 originated in a Chinese lab even though intelligence officials have said there's none

(1) Pompeo has said that he thinks it was (accidentally) released from the lab which was working on it (as part of the gain-of-function research programme).

(2) Intelligence officials have said that it was not genetically engineered.

Those statements do not actually conflict.

 

[com7fy8]

So is there an opportunity for someone to make money here, that would be one leg to the table.

I understand that anyone can buy stocks after they go down, then see how high they go back up or even higher, later. So, at a time like this, there possibly is not need to have a conspiracy to make some money on this.

These days, if someone was going to buy up all the down stocks, using a billion dollars or more . . . and this had been the plan which the person or group had control to make to happen . . . it might show in records.

So . . . then . . . do you know of anyone buying major amounts of stock which is the more likely to rebound, so the person or people can be rich and control a lot of companies? So far, I have heard . . . it seems to me . . . that most people are just selling, and not many seem to be buying.

Now if another country started buying up all the down stocks . . . buying America would be an interesting thing, if this is what could happen. It might be cheaper than a war.

 

[com7fy8]

(2) Intelligence officials have said that it was not genetically engineered.

If the more generally accepted reports are correct > SARS CoV2 can select and kill older people, but it also can infect people and not cause symptoms so people not clearly sick can help to spread the virus while no one thinks the infected people are sick. I'd say that's pretty clever, and I am not sure how able human scientists are to develop genes which would make a virus able to do stuff like that.

Plus, now there is at least the rumor that SARS CoV2 can cause stroke in younger people. Let me double-check the most recent reporting I can find on this . . . yes >

Unexpected Cause of Death in Younger COVID-19 Patients is Related to Blood Clotting | BioSpace

Large-Vessel Stroke as a Presenting Feature of Covid-19 in the Young | NEJM

If I understand this right, in New York City they discovered how five younger adults . . . under 50 years old . . . were infected with SARS CoV2, and they had little or no symptoms but they got strokes in larger blood vessels.

But CDC reporting did not show anything about this, that I found.

This little thing seems to have some high-level capability which I am not sure humans could give to it. But never say never, right?

As for this being a conspiracy > if people wanted to cause a major tumult, I would think a killer of children would be much more effective.

Plus, it could be more of a judgmental creature that punishes people who have not taken care of themselves right, during their lives, but then it gives strokes to self-righteous younger people who feel it is fine to not take precautions because they don't care about what happens to seniors.

Now, though, they are not sure the virus is actually causing the coagulation which causes the strokes, but maybe there is inflammation and lower mobility which are causing large-vessel clots.

But those younger people weren't lying around with major symptoms which could help cause clotting. This is what I understand, anyway . . . since they had COVID-19 but with very little symptom stuff.

 

[Radagast]

If the more generally accepted reports are correct > SARS CoV2 can select and kill older people, but it also can infect people and not cause symptoms so people not clearly sick can help to spread the virus while no one thinks the infected people are sick. I'd say that's pretty clever, and I am not sure how able human scientists are to develop genes which would make a virus able to do stuff like that.

Genetically, COVID-19 is much like other bat coronaviruses, so it's not genetically engineered.

As a close relative of the common cold, in most people COVID-19 is like the common cold (a bit of a sniffle and/or a sore throat). For some people, especially the elderly, it turns deadly. I don't think we 100% understand why.

But those younger people weren't lying around with major symptoms which could help cause clotting.

In some people, the immune system goes into overkill (it's called a "cytokine storm"). That's what causes the problems you describe, I think.

 

[ZNP]

(1) Pompeo has said that he thinks it was (accidentally) released from the lab which was working on it (as part of the gain-of-function research programme).

(2) Intelligence officials have said that it was not genetically engineered.

Those statements do not actually conflict.

Suppose both statements are correct, they were studying this virus that they didn't produce and accidentally released it. Where did it originally come from? If it originated naturally then why did it originate in Wuhan after accidentally being released?

How did these scientists find it if it had never been transmitted to humans prior to this?

Gain of function is a very general term, is that referring to a virus that previously only infected bats now being able to infect humans?

 

[ZNP]

If the more generally accepted reports are correct > SARS CoV2 can select and kill older people, but it also can infect people and not cause symptoms so people not clearly sick can help to spread the virus while no one thinks the infected people are sick. I'd say that's pretty clever, and I am not sure how able human scientists are to develop genes which would make a virus able to do stuff like that.

I agree. I feel much more comfortable ascribing this wisdom to God.

 

[ZNP]

This little thing seems to have some high-level capability which I am not sure humans could give to it. But never say never, right?

I do agree that it appears to have high level capability. For example, if it is mutating over the course of a year so that the vaccine doesn't protect you from newer strains, that would be a high level capability. It has also gone around the world infecting millions, so even though the flu does this, we should still appreciate the high level capability there. The numbers are comparable to the flu, but we never had a total shutdown of the world's economy before so this is a very impressive little bug.

 

[ZNP]

As for this being a conspiracy > if people wanted to cause a major tumult, I would think a killer of children would be much more effective.

Plus, it could be more of a judgmental creature that punishes people who have not taken care of themselves right, during their lives, but then it gives strokes to self-righteous younger people who feel it is fine to not take precautions because they don't care about what happens to seniors.

Wow, ok. Or, like the Tower of Siloam maybe the message is not that they were sinners above the rest but rather unless we repent we also will die likewise.

 

[Radagast]

Suppose both statements are correct, they were studying this virus that they didn't produce and accidentally released it. Where did it originally come from?

Because the whole point of these "gain-of-function" experiments was to take an existing virus from the animal kingdom (such as a bat coronavirus) and experiment with it.

The theory is that someone at the Wuhan lab accidentally got infected, and then spread it to other people in the city of Wuhan.

Gain of function is a very general term, is that referring to a virus that previously only infected bats now being able to infect humans?

The idea of the "gain-of-function" experiments is to grow the virus in laboratory animals, effectively "breeding" it to become more easily transmissible and more deadly.

For many years, many scientists have felt that this sort of experiment was a really, really bad idea, and for a while the US banned them. See Ban on deadly pathogen research lifts, but controversy remains

It was exactly this sort of thing that was happening in the Wuhan lab: https://www.vox.com/2020/5/1/212431...ing-viruses-deadlier-and-why-they-should-stop

We don't know that COVID-19 started with an accidental release from the Wuhan lab, but it would certainly explain things.

 

[ZNP]

Because the whole point of these "gain-of-function" experiments was to take an existing virus from the animal kingdom (such as a bat coronavirus) and experiment with it.

The theory is that someone at the Wuhan lab accidentally got infected, and then spread it to other people in the city of Wuhan.

From there the blame is not so much on the "accidental infection" but on the coverup. This would not support some kind of conspiracy theory other than the conspiracy to cover it up and hide the truth.

 

[ZNP]

The idea of the "gain-of-function" experiments is to grow the virus in laboratory animals, effectively "breeding" it to become more easily transmissible and more deadly.

For many years, many scientists have felt that this sort of experiment was a really, really bad idea, and for a while the US banned them. See Ban on deadly pathogen research lifts, but controversy remains

It was exactly this sort of thing that was happening in the Wuhan lab: https://www.vox.com/2020/5/1/212431...ing-viruses-deadlier-and-why-they-should-stop

It is very easy to imagine that they were studying deadly pathogens as a potential weapon. Regardless of their intent the Bible says to avoid the appearance of evil and they certainly did not do that.

 

[com7fy8]

if it is mutating over the course of a year so that the vaccine doesn't protect you from newer strains

I read that when a germ mutates so it might not be susceptible to an antibiotic . . . it has not changed to become a better germ, but it is degraded to a level which can not be effected by the antibiotic. So, from this I consider there might be something similar for mutating so immunity doesn't detect it. Then, supposing here, that could have to do with why it comes to an end of a season > it peters out > attenuates, because it has become so degraded that it can't function . . . pathologically, anyway. Or else, I suppose, it would be evolving which a number of us believe can't happen

"cytokine storm"

I did see that term, in one of the articles, I think. But I haven't started to research that. The immune system is quite something. I have tried to figure out the immune cells and chemical interacting and how inflammation is involved.

 

[Radagast]

It is very easy to imagine that they were studying deadly pathogens as a potential weapon.

I don't think so. I think they were just doing medically motivated research in a really, really foolish way.

 

[Radagast]

I did see that term, in one of the articles, I think. But I haven't started to research that. The immune system is quite something.

It certainly is.

But just think back to the last time you got the flu -- which affects the lining of the nose and throat. You would also have felt fever and aches and pains elsewhere in your body -- those things were your immune system in action.

And if your immune system goes into overdrive, it can kill you.

 

[com7fy8]

In my understanding for a conspiracy to work they want to make merchandise of you.

People can be conspiring to make it look like the government has a conspiracy > the purpose of misrepresenting the government would be to discredit it. This could be because of money reasons, or resentment of authority, or to gain followers who can be somehow used by the anti-government conspirators. So, when ones accuse government people of a conspiracy to spread COVID-19, their false accusing could be part of the real conspiracy.

And cult leaders can create an enemy, just so they can point people's attention to that enemy so people do not evaluate the leaders. So, it is a conspiracy to control attention, I guess we could say. And then they might use members in different ways, not only for money. Actually, if they get control of members, they can use members to get what would require money to help to get it in a more regular social setting. People might work for free, and they might give up sexual favors which normally would come after a couple has made financial arrangements so they can be married and have their intimate sharing. So, instead of conspiring to get money, they could conspire to bypass getting money and get things for free.

And there are people who just want control. Or maybe they want political control so they can have liberal morals, and they could be motivated just by resentment of being told how to live; so they might conspire somehow to discredit political opponents and religious activists (who indeed can be self-righteous . . . like I have been). And vice versa there could be so-called conservative or even so-called evangelical ones who are not honest . . . even while others are honest and would not knowingly join in a conspiracy; but the dishonest ones could use conspiracy tactics against the liberals. Their objective could be ideological and wanting to justify themselves, and/or maybe to control even only for the sake of it and so they can feel like they are somebody.

From there the blame is not so much on the "accidental infection" but on the coverup. This would not support some kind of conspiracy theory other than the conspiracy to cover it up and hide the truth.

When an individual gets sick, he or she might cover it up, making one's own conspiracy with oneself to fool people into thinking he or she is healthy enough to be at work; and possibly ones who get sick might cooperate with contacts, by not reporting each other to COVID-19 investigators, conspiring to not be controlled by authorities > of, if they have gotten each other sick by means of adultery or promiscuous behavior they might not want that to get out; so partners and even groups of people might conspire not to let authorities know what is going on. There is "code of silence" among prisoners, and even among members of different public service and other professional groups. So, I think humans can have an ability to conspire at various levels of society.

My opinion is when certain people can be suspicious without any evidence, this could be because they were controlled while children. They kept having unexplained run-ins with things getting in the way of their doing things > because their parents were possessive so this happened much more than might happen for most children. And so, they have developed an assumption that any time we don't get our own way, there must be someone scheming to interfere with us.

But "God resists the proud," we have in James 4:6 and also in 1 Peter 5:5. So, Satan and people in his kingdom can in fact have even constant interference with what they are trying to do. And so, certainly they can feel like someone is messing with them. And they are right: God is.

So, when things go against me and I get bent out of shape about it . . . this can mean I am being resisted by God, and my ego is acting up in reaction against God, really. God might even use a real conspiracy . . . in order to resist me . . . for my own good. Then it's what I make it, how I take it, just don't fake it

But if God interferes with what I am trying to do in my ego, this can be very good. It keeps me from continuing in a bad direction . . . where Satan would take me all the way if God let him, I would say. But then is when my ego can start reacting badly to not getting its own way, and that nasty and negative reacting gives it away . . . so I can stop and trust God to correct me and restore me to be submissive to Him in His love and find out what He really wants me to be doing . . . in sharing with Him in His peace > Colossians 3:15.

Even so > if I am with Him, there can be world-caused conspiracies which are not meant to expose my ego > but with God we can take advantage of Satan's conspiracies and share with God in how He can turn anything to His good end.

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Test each thing for the good God wants to do with it, and share this with us.

And beware of the attention conspiracy. This world is constantly doing things simply to keep our attention away from God, so we are weak enough to be controlled and used by Satan and self-seeking people.

Satan is said to be >

"You who weakened the nations", in Isaiah 14:12.

By keeping our attention away from God, this helps to keep us from submitting to Him so we are in His strength . . . in His peace with His immunity almighty against all the nasty and negative and numbskulling stuff which can mess us and keep us from sharing with God and loving as His family.

So, this world's kingdom, then, can make conspiracy claims, just to keep our attention elsewhere.

It can sneakily have us worrying about people and things we need to not be depending on, anyway!

 

[ZNP]

People can be conspiring to make it look like the government has a conspiracy > the purpose of misrepresenting the government would be to discredit it. This could be because of money reasons, or resentment of authority, or to gain followers who can be somehow used by the anti-government conspirators. So, when ones accuse government people of a conspiracy to spread COVID-19, their false accusing could be part of the real conspiracy.

Once you go down that path it gets way too complicated. They did this during the JFK assassination, when it became clear that the majority of Americans were not buying the lone gunman theory they put out many crackpot conspiracy theories to discredit the whole thing. Made it seem like any conspiracy theory was crackpot, and force many to throw up their hands and say "who knows".

But the reality is we do know, Nixon knew and it was revealed in his tapes, Howard Hunt knew and he confessed on his deathbed. There was only one theory that fit the three conditions I gave, they had the means to carry out the deed, they had a motive to do it, and they had the means to cover it up afterwards.

I am not ruling out exploitation, those who see an opportunity to take advantage of the situation, but who didn't cause it nor did they cover it up.

 

[ZNP]

So I would say there are only two entities that had the means to create this thing and to cover that up. China and the US. So then did either have a motive? Exports for China are down 30%, that is a very big cost to them, what are they gaining for that cost? US is accusing them of being responsible and they had to know that it would be traced back to Wuhan, so it is also a very big cost to your public image. Also, $1 trillion in US debt that China holds will be greatly depreciated. I find it very difficult to see how China gains anything from this at all.

So what about the US? Our oil industry is all but wiped out. That in turn will cause our trade deficit to spike. We have massive unemployment and massive debt from the stimulus packages already passed (about 6 times that of the mortgage crisis). Stock market is down about $1 trillion and there are indications that it will drop another 40%. We are about to see a long list of bankruptcies, so tax revenue will take a massive dive at the same time that government expenses for this are ramped up to an unprecedented level. I suppose there will be a few that will profit from this, but those companies and people are far too small to believe they could cover it up.

And no one that we have mentioned has the ability to get 100+ nations to all shut down their economies.

So without some wickedly ingenious insight everyone is missing I would have to rule out a conspiracy.

That said I can see the government exploiting this to push the idea of the mark of the beast.

 

[Radagast]

So without some wickedly ingenious insight everyone is missing I would have to rule out a conspiracy.

"People did something stupid and covered it up" does tend to explain 90% of what goes on in the world.

 

[ZNP]

"People did something stupid and covered it up" does tend to explain 90% of what goes on in the world.

True, but that doesn't fit the criteria of having created this thing and of profiting from it.