Exactly how did Christ win the resurrection argument in Matthew 22

[BobRyan]

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When you quote Jesus statement.

Who are you saying those dead are?

The Sadducees presented Christ with one example.
Christ presented the Sadducees with a similar one.

Both of them referencing a future event. -- the future resurrection of the saints.

 

[BobRyan]

Okay. Sadducee: no resurrection, but if there is one in the future, whose wife WILL she be.

Okay. Christ: you err. In the resurrection, there's no marriage [present tense].

There is no more waiting in long lines for a driver's licenses in that resurrection day.

The Sadducees provide the future context because they are trying to refute Christ's statement about the future resurrection.

 

[thesunisout]

"34 But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. " NASB

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. KJV

So then just how did Christ "win the argument" in Matthew 22? In that chapter the Pharisees admit that "Jesus put them to silence" -- put the Sadducees to silence meaning that they had nothing to counter-with.... they had no counter argument left to them and thus before all the onlookers they were forced to be "silent" having no answer available.

How is that?

What was the "irrefutable logic" that Christ used that the Sadducees found so silencing??

On this and many other Christian discussion boards you will occasionally find someone who merely "quotes themselves" as if that "proves" something to the opposing side.. and as we all know.. that never does.

Sometimes Jesus would contrast his position by saying "you say this.. but I say something else" -- but that is not the solution given in Matthew 22. In Matthew 22 he points to scripture and essentially says "there look at that we both agree with 'A' and we both agree with 'B' and that means you have a problem".

What exactly was the logic that He used? How did He "put them to silence"

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BTW for the sake of focus for this thread we are talking specifically about this --

Suppose as stated in the text Christ is actually debating the topic of the resurrection of the dead -- the future resurrection of the saints -- and actually did put the Sadducees to silence on that very topic... not some other subject.

Matt 22: And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

As someone has already posted
Luke 20:37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Aren't Abraham, Issac and Jacob alive with God in Heaven right now? I think that is what shut them up since the verse proved they were alive and therefore not still in the grave as the Sadducees would have believed.

 

[DamianWarS]

Correct they were diehard antagonists of Christ. And would not give an inch so when faced with that irrefutable proof of the future resurrection they do not say "oh wow -- we have no solution for that so now we accept your doctrine" ... rather they choose "silence" over surrender and admitting defeat.

But that was pretty surprising to the Pharisees who saw along with everyone else that on the much-debated doctrine of the future resurrection - the Sadducees had finally been put to silence.

Quite an event!

I think the Sadducees gave Christ a question that had less to do with doctrinal beliefs and more to do with trapping Jesus. The Pharisees had as much contempt for Jesus and I doubt they were empowered with ammunition against the Sadducees from this conversation.

 

[Standing Up]

Aren't Abraham, Issac and Jacob alive with God in Heaven right now? I think that is what shut them up since the verse proved they were alive and therefore not still in the grave as the Sadducees would have believed.

At the time of Christ (before His resurrection at which time the graves opened and bodies came out (Mat. 27:52)), we don't really know whether believers were in heaven or somewhere.

But you are right that the point of Christ's quote that God is of the living (present tense) is that they were alive. And yes, believers are alive when they die, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.

 

[simonthezealot]

I love this quote, Standing Up...
" And yes, believers are alive when they die, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies."

 

[BobRyan]

I love this quote, Standing Up...
" And yes, believers are alive when they die, awaiting the resurrection of their bodies."

Would have to look a long time for Paul to say that in 1 Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[BobRyan]

I think the Sadducees gave Christ a question that had less to do with doctrinal beliefs and more to do with trapping Jesus. .

Trapping him on the doctrine of the future resurrection - asking him how the many husbands of one wife scenario could be solved in a such a future -- according to His doctrine on that topic.

Matt 22: And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

As someone has already posted
Luke 20:37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

The "proposal" we often hear today is of the form "what if Jesus totally failed to prove his stated objective to defend His stated doctrine on resurrection -- and instead said "Now as for the fact that people are alive while dead"??"

 

[BobRyan]

Aren't Abraham, Issac and Jacob alive with God in Heaven right now? I think that is what shut them up since the verse proved they were alive and therefore not still in the grave as the Sadducees would have believed.

That is the "non-resurrection" topic that totally unermines Jesus' proof if we take that as the actual solution.

Jesus said -

Matt 22: And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

As someone has already posted
Luke 20:37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

The "proposal" we often hear today is of the form "what if Jesus totally failed to prove his stated objective to defend His stated doctrine on resurrection -- and instead said "Now as for the fact that people are alive while dead"??"

Notice the source of "comfort" for New Testament saints regarding the dead??
1 Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[thesunisout]

That is the "non-resurrection" topic that totally unermines Jesus' proof if we take that as the actual solution.

Jesus said -

Matt 22: And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob"? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

As someone has already posted
Luke 20:37) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

The "proposal" we often hear today is of the form "what if Jesus totally failed to prove his stated objective to defend His stated doctrine on resurrection -- and instead said "Now as for the fact that people are alive while dead"??"

Notice the source of "comfort" for New Testament saints regarding the dead??
1 Thess 4

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you believe in the divine inspiration of scripture? Do you believe Jesus Christ is God incarnate? If you do then it is impossible that He didn't prove what the scripture says that He did.

I think it is pretty simple; if Abraham, Issac and Jacob are not dead in their graves, but alive in Heaven, they have been resurrected, or raised from the dead. I think you may be confusing this with the future resurrection when Christ returns. That is when we receive our glorified bodies.

Is the problem that you believe in soul sleep and you think that everyone who died isn't in Heaven right now?

 

[BobRyan]

Do you believe in the divine inspiration of scripture? Do you believe Jesus Christ is God incarnate?

Yes - but the Sadducees did not believe in Christ -- they were more opposed to Him than they were to the Pharisees.

If you do then it is impossible that He didn't prove what the scripture says that He did.

I agree .. which is why the creative writing that sometimes happens today that would insert ideas into the text that totally undermine the argument of Christ for the future resurrection have to be set aside in favor of what the Bible details show us.

I think it is pretty simple; if Abraham, Issac and Jacob are not dead in their graves, but alive in Heaven, they have been resurrected, or raised from the dead.

There is no text in the entire Bible that says you are resurrected the moment you die. I think we all know that. And all historians know this is not what was being debated in Matt 22 (resurrection at death).

I think you may be confusing this with the future resurrection when Christ returns.

Indeed that is the resurrection actually mentioned in the Bible. That is the one all Bible scholars admit that the Sadducees were opposing since there is "no other one" to be debated.

1 Thess 4 proves this point beyond all question "comfort one another with these words" very specific to the 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 resurrection as we just saw in this post -- Yesterday at 6:51 PM #49

so also as Christ spoke in John 14:1-3 "I will come again and receive you to myself".

1 Peter 1:13 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

It doesn't matter that he doesn't answer the direct question about the resurrection he attacks their philosophies of the afterlife by giving them something they can't reject and thus makes them look like fools. If feels like a bit of a straw man approach but it worked.

1. He did answer their question about the resurrection - he solved the puzzle regarding that future resurrection for them with the scenario they give of the woman with 7 husbands. It was answered.

2. Then he proposes his own puzzle for them - proving the future resurrection such that "they were put to silence" because they could not come up with a solution that would not require the future resurrection.

Is the problem that you believe in soul sleep and you think that everyone who died isn't in Heaven right now?

No the obvious "problem" is as stated above for those promoting a solution to a "different question" which is you must then admit " he doesn't answer the direct question about the resurrection" and on top of that you have to then claim "it does not matter"

In other words you claim Christ loses the stated debate point HE identifies -- but then wins a debate topic not even mentioned as being in debate.

Here is a question for you -- why would Sadducees agree with Christ that "God is not the God of the dead"??? What is it about Sadducees' doctrine that would cause them to accept that point without any argument?

 

[Standing Up]

A belief in "soul sleep" explains the confusion. As I mentioned in a PS, the nature of one's existence after death (some think asleep, some think in heaven, some think pending, some think souls awaiting resurrection of bodies), doesn't particularly matter to the discussion. We all believe there's some type of life after death.

The Sadducee, however, didn't believe in a resurrection. You live, you die, end of story. No life after death. Christ said you err, marriage like on earth doesn't exist like that after death. Moreover, God is God of the living. (But again, the nature of "the living" after death is a different question.)

 

[thesunisout]

Here is a question for you -- why would Sadducees agree with Christ that "God is not the God of the dead"??? What is it about Sadducees' doctrine that would cause them to accept that point without any argument?

Since you're picking and choosing sentences out of my post we can't have a real conversation about this. Take care

 

[BobRyan]

The Sadducee, however, didn't believe in a resurrection. You live, you die, end of story. No life after death.

True.

This makes it easy to explain the logic Christ used to prove the future resurrection to the Sadducees such that they had "no answer" and were "put to silence" on the subject of the much-rejected future resurrection doctrine of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

A belief in "soul sleep" explains the confusion. As I mentioned in a PS, the nature of one's existence after death (some think asleep, some think in heaven, some think pending, some think souls awaiting resurrection of bodies), doesn't particularly matter to the discussion.

It does matter when given Christ's "proof" in Matt 22 -- Christ is arguing two facts that the Sadducees fully agree with.

1. God id NOT the God of the dead -- much to the surprise of a great many people today.
2. God speaking to Moses after Abraham died says "I AM the God of Abraham".

And Christ's argument was "see? That means there has to be a future resurrection" - such a strong point made that the Sadducees had no response... they were put to silence.

 

[Standing Up]

It does matter when given Christ's "proof" in Matt 22 -- Christ is arguing two facts that the Sadducees fully agree with.

1. God id NOT the God of the dead -- much to the surprise of a great many people today.
2. God speaking to Moses after Abraham died says "I AM the God of Abraham".

And Christ's argument was "see? That means there has to be a future resurrection" - such a strong point made that the Sadducees had no response... they were put to silence.

I AM the God of Abraham.

That means a future resurrection? Does it also mean Abraham is alive (even including soul sleep for conversation sake), though physically dead?

 

[BobRyan]

I AM the God of Abraham.

That means a future resurrection? Does it also mean Abraham is alive (even including soul sleep for conversation sake), though physically dead?

If Abraham is alive while dead (an oxymoron) then the statement "I am the God of Abraham" says nothing at all about a future resurrection.

What is more - Sadducees view all of it as total nonsense - so they were not about to stuff all the nonsense down their own throats as "a gift"... rather they would only yield a point when it was forced on them and they had no other way out...even then "silence" would be better in their minds than swallowing that medicine.

Christ was very clear that the point being proved is the future resurrection and that this had to be the case - because it was the only way God's statement to Moses could possibly be true.

What you "should" be asking - is "if they accepted that proof for the future resurrection -- would that lead them to the step of Abraham as being alive-while-dead?"

In other words is there something about that future resurrection argument that would lead them back to undoing the entire argument and believing Abraham was alive while dead and needed no resurrection for the proof given to be true?