Ex-Gay? How?

[Antoninus Verus]

Ive heard stories about people being gay, then suddenly becomming straight again. I have seen the Ex-Gay Ministries(sp) site and theres something that doesnt....quite square.

I have been involved with homosexuals since the age of 5. My dear friend Tess came around at the age of 12 and she was as lesbian as its possible to get. I am a member of our school's GLSA (Gay/Lesbian Student Alliance) and I have been since my freshman year. Ive participated in several gay pride rallies and some of my dearest friends are gay. I, quite arguably(sp), have more exposure to gays and the gay community than most other straight people.

Yet not once, in my 11 years of knowing gays, have I ever met someone who even CLAIMED that they were at one time gay but are now straight. That they "snapped out of it" as it were. And believe me, I have asked.

Why?

I have two theories and only two that stand up to Occam's Razor.

1. The people who claim to be ex-gay, were not gay, but bi-sexual and managed to convince themselves that they were straight through extremely harsh self-criticizim(sp) and mental repetition.

2. Some of them are lying to themselves and trying to convince themselves they are straight when in thier hearts they know they are still gay.

 

[Ninja Turtles]

I think your theories are correct, but I think this is where people will parse homosexual sex acts and homosexual attraction. I don't think people can change who they're attracted to, it's just part of who we are.

I read an interesting article about a woman that was in a car accident with her fiance. Her face basically turned to putty because of extensive facial fractures and it caused some brain damage in the form of amnesia. They were able to reconstruct her face, but her mind was all fragmented. She became a new and different personality, she was a essentialy a new person who didn't even recognize her own family. At one point she became sexually attracted to her brother and father. I think if someone feels attraction to a person, that's who they are. It requires extraordinary trauma to the brain (as with this accident) to get a REAL change, not just forced change in behavior. For instance, all addicts do not lose the compulsion to indulge in whatever they quit, they just supplant that desire with something else, however, the desire still remains. In the case of these Ex-gay ministries, I believe religion is used, but I still think these people are homosexual.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Ive heard stories about people being gay, then suddenly becomming straight again. I have seen the Ex-Gay Ministries(sp) site and theres something that doesnt....quite square.

I have been involved with homosexuals since the age of 5. My dear friend Tess came around at the age of 12 and she was as lesbian as its possible to get. I am a member of our school's GLSA (Gay/Lesbian Student Alliance) and I have been since my freshman year. Ive participated in several gay pride rallies and some of my dearest friends are gay. I, quite arguably(sp), have more exposure to gays and the gay community than most other straight people.

Yet not once, in my 11 years of knowing gays, have I ever met someone who even CLAIMED that they were at one time gay but are now straight. That they "snapped out of it" as it were. And believe me, I have asked.

Why?

I have two theories and only two that stand up to Occam's Razor.

1. The people who claim to be ex-gay, were not gay, but bi-sexual and managed to convince themselves that they were straight through extremely harsh self-criticizim(sp) and mental repetition.

2. Some of them are lying to themselves and trying to convince themselves they are straight when in thier hearts they know they are still gay.

I don't believe that a person will not be tempted by the sins they were caught in. It is like any other sin. Theft, lying, drugs, etc. Just because we come to a point where we realize that Jesus is the Way and decide to turn from our sins does not mean the enemy will not continue to try and tempt us with our old lives. The temptation to act out is not sinful. The acting out is.

 

[Mechanical Bliss]

1. The people who claim to be ex-gay, were not gay, but bi-sexual and managed to convince themselves that they were straight through extremely harsh self-criticizim(sp) and mental repetition.

This is reflected by the fact that those defined as "homosexual" by "ex-gay" organizations actually include bisexuals.

It's also reflected by the fact that those defined as "ex-homosexual" by those organizations include people who either abstain from homosexual sexual activity, but still have homosexual inclinations, or engage in heterosexual activity even if it means having homosexual thoughts to arouse oneself.

That type of flimsy methodology employed by "ex-gay" organizations illustrates just how anti-scientific they are and religio-politically potivated they are.

2. Some of them are lying to themselves and trying to convince themselves they are straight when in thier hearts they know they are still gay.

Like I said above, those deemed "successes" or "cured" actually include people who have to have homosexual thoughts to function heterosexually. So those people are consciously lying to themselves, and their sexual partner(s).

However, there are also people who unconsciously lie to themselves in the same way: denial. The emotional, social, and familial consequences of accepting their sexual orientation is too great that they will pretend that they are heterosexual to avoid those consequences.

You'll find that many, if not most, gay people in general, prior to admitting their sexual orientation go through a phase of denial when they actually "believe" they are heterosexuals, and in hindsight realize just how desperate they were to lie to themselves just to get by. It's sad the way society fosters this.

 

[seebs]

I think there may well exist individual people who have changed. I would not be surprised if sexuality were more fluid in some people and less in others.

However, it's very hard to make progress on this question, because many people start with dogmatic convictions on what answers will be found. I am not sure how to make useful progress.

 

[xMinionX]

Wasn't there some statistic somewhere saying that something like 90% of all 'ex-gay' cases revert to homosexuality?

Also, wasn't there a leading spokesperson for the ex-gay movement who ended up reverting himself?

 

[Lokisdottir]

I think there may well exist individual people who have changed. I would not be surprised if sexuality were more fluid in some people and less in others.

I think change is definitely possible, but I think trying to force such a change is rather akin to saying, "You're too short, have a growth spurt NOW, darn it!"

 

[ahab]

I would say its the same for heterosexuals, for example the vast majority of us dont stop having lustful thoughts. Incidently though I would say that I am an ex-internet porn viewer, by the power of the Holy Spirit I have overcome that. I still have lustful thoughts for women though. I would say this is the same for most homosexually orientated Christians who are celibate rather than ex-homosexual. I think however to say that one cant be ex-gay by the power of God is to deny God and call into question the integrity of the individuals who give this testimony. for those of us who follow Jesus we all have some cross to bear, whatever it is.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Ive heard stories about people being gay, then suddenly becomming straight again. I have seen the Ex-Gay Ministries(sp) site and theres something that doesnt....quite square.

I have been involved with homosexuals since the age of 5. My dear friend Tess came around at the age of 12 and she was as lesbian as its possible to get. I am a member of our school's GLSA (Gay/Lesbian Student Alliance) and I have been since my freshman year. Ive participated in several gay pride rallies and some of my dearest friends are gay. I, quite arguably(sp), have more exposure to gays and the gay community than most other straight people.

Yet not once, in my 11 years of knowing gays, have I ever met someone who even CLAIMED that they were at one time gay but are now straight. That they "snapped out of it" as it were. And believe me, I have asked.

Why?

I have two theories and only two that stand up to Occam's Razor.

1. The people who claim to be ex-gay, were not gay, but bi-sexual and managed to convince themselves that they were straight through extremely harsh self-criticizim(sp) and mental repetition.

2. Some of them are lying to themselves and trying to convince themselves they are straight when in thier hearts they know they are still gay.

So, a short life with heavy exposure (by your own statements) and supporting homosexual behavior verses a browse of one Ex-gay website and one is ready to present theories on the subject?
First, I would be suspect of any Ex-gay reparative therapy that is not Christian based. Why? Because those that have the best testimonies and are the strongest examples are Christians and give the credit to the power of God; which, is where I also give credit to how I was delivered from sexual immorality . Secondly, once one is repentant of a sexual immorality, that person(s) doesn't 'hang around' that atmosphere anymore - thus your confessed environment and theirs is by default, opposite. A third would be that their past is an embarrassment and personal, which one isn't usually compelled to expose haphazardly... especially to someone that asserts that the 'individual in question' didn't know what they felt or what they are now is a lie.
So I suppose that given only a few of the issues involved, I see no reason to believe that you would be familiar with an ex-gay. Your motivation isn't in entertaining that aspect, it is in supporting the continuance of remaining in it.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I would say its the same for heterosexuals, for example the vast majority of us dont stop having lustful thoughts. Incidently though I would say that I am an ex-internet porn viewer, by the power of the Holy Spirit I have overcome that. I still have lustful thoughts for women though. I would say this is the same for most homosexually orientated Christians who are celibate rather than ex-homosexual. I think however to say that one cant be ex-gay by the power of God is to deny God and call into question the integrity of the individuals who give this testimony. for those of us who follow Jesus we all have some cross to bear, whatever it is.

And then there are those of us that over time, godly practices and self-control HAVE had those thoughts beaten down and do not entertain them. The false premise that one must be 'thought free' is not in keeping with fleeing from sin, and God is quite capable of knowing if we entertain or actually put forth 100% in trying to please Him. For some to say (and I'm not saying you are saying this) that the lustful thoughts do not lessen or that God's way does not reward would not be reflected in anything godly I know of. Either one is doomed to be slave to sin or there is deliverance - it comes down to that simple fact and I have faith and am a testament that God is not a liar.

 

[ahab]

Hi ChristianCenturion,

Thanks for your posts which gives God the glory and for your testimony of faith
I meant that we still get tempted by lustful thoughts from time to time but we rebuke them, we overcome, not succumb.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Hi ChristianCenturion,

Thanks for your posts which gives God the glory and for your testimony of faith
I meant that we still get tempted by lustful thoughts from time to time but we rebuke them, we overcome, not succumb.

I tried to clarify that I didn't think that you were saying anything wrong; I was trying to supplement your statement.

Shalom

 

[mpshiel]

well, you could look at "Courage" the ex-gay ministry of Jeremy Marks or rather the previously ex-gay ministry in the UK based on and with ties to Exodus which 5 years ago kept the exact same theology (evangelical Christian but now is a sheltering place for LGB Christians to work out issues and internal conflicts. It is quite an interesting story. (by the by you can link from thier website to thier statement of beliefs - which includes the Nicene Creed)

http://www.courage.org.uk/

There are a host of questions:

Can you grow to love someone without necessarily they making you sexual excited and enter into marriage with them?
Is it possible to grow in attraction with someone of the opposite sex while still being primarily attracted to people of the same sex?
Can you perform a sexual act with someone without feeling any attraction to them at all?
Can you enter into a marriage while liking but not neccesarily loving your spouse?

I think the answer to that is: Sure.

Most gay and lesbians dated at least one person of the opposite sex in high school. Some attempted to conform socially by entering into marriage. Does that then mean that they were heterosexual because it externally appeared to be so?

As findings have shown, faith based ex-gay ministries can be helpful to some individuals in both opening up their sexual spectrum (which can include opposite sex attraction - about 1-3%) or in dealing with other issues (up to 25%). No ex-gay ministry can guarentee or demonstrate a change in sexual attraction (perhaps in having less same sex fantasies..yes) in a majority of the people who go through thier program.

Yes, thousands of people say that they have found ex-gay ministries helpful and changed thier orientation. Why should I doubt that. Over half a million people say that they are gay and that is part of who they are, whether born, genes, early experience, whatever and it isn't going to change now. Why should I doubt them?

 

[SnowBear]

Ive heard stories about people being gay, then suddenly becomming straight again. I have seen the Ex-Gay Ministries(sp) site and theres something that doesnt....quite square.

I have been involved with homosexuals since the age of 5. My dear friend Tess came around at the age of 12 and she was as lesbian as its possible to get. I am a member of our school's GLSA (Gay/Lesbian Student Alliance) and I have been since my freshman year. Ive participated in several gay pride rallies and some of my dearest friends are gay. I, quite arguably(sp), have more exposure to gays and the gay community than most other straight people.

Yet not once, in my 11 years of knowing gays, have I ever met someone who even CLAIMED that they were at one time gay but are now straight. That they "snapped out of it" as it were. And believe me, I have asked.

Why?

I have two theories and only two that stand up to Occam's Razor.

1. The people who claim to be ex-gay, were not gay, but bi-sexual and managed to convince themselves that they were straight through extremely harsh self-criticizim(sp) and mental repetition.

2. Some of them are lying to themselves and trying to convince themselves they are straight when in thier hearts they know they are still gay.

This is born out by the fact that the organizations who claim to facilitate change cannot substantiate their claims. NARTH, Exodus International, P-Fox,



All, for some reason, decline to keep records.



On particular interest is the study Robert Spitzer completed on the topic. He wanted to study those who claim to have changed sexual orientation, unfortunately he couldn’t find any. So he turned to these organizations who claim to have altered the sexual orientation of tens of thousands of individuals yet combined they were only able to provide him with 274 possibile individuals. Of these only 16 men were willing to state that they had changed form being homosexual to heterosexual. The majority of those that the organizations claim to have alter sexual orientation report no change in sexual orientation. This makes the estimated success rate of such programs 0.02%. however when looking at the 16 who claim to have changed sexual oriention it was found that nine of these individuals lied about their original sexual orientation and all were now employed by these same organizations.



SL Morrow, AL Beckstead. (2004) .A methodological critique of Spitzer’s research on reparative therapy. The Journal of Counseling Psychology.



These organizations are not only unable to provide any backing to their claims regarding conversion they are unable to provide any evidence for the outdated theories of sexual orientation that they use.









Drs. Michael Schroeder Ariel Shidlo. Interviewed hundreds of men and women who attempted to change their sexual orientation and found: They published their findings in

“Ethical Issues in Sexual Orientation Conversion Therapies: An Empirical Study of Consumers” published in “Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical and Research Perspectives” Edited by Ariel Shidlo, PhD



“A significant proportion of reparative therapy patients sustain serious, lasting injuries. Having been misled into thinking that being gay is a mental disorder and something that can be changed if they'll only try hard enough, many people feel doubly flawed when a "cure" eludes them. "Frequently they become very, very depressed," a mental state that in many interviewees triggered such self-destructive behavior as unsafe sex, drug abuse or suicide attempts.

Reparative therapy not only encourages self-hatred but often sours family relationships by spreading the myth that homosexuality results from poor parenting. Some patients suffer spiritually when they cannot do what they're told God requires. And a great many temporarily lose their capacity for real human intimacy. Repressing gay desires creates a void, not a true heterosexual.”

 

[jayem]

If someone "converts" from homosexuality, does that mean they no longer like Judy Garland, Cher, or Broadway musicals?

 

[SnowBear]

Wasn't there some statistic somewhere saying that something like 90% of all 'ex-gay' cases revert to homosexuality?

Also, wasn't there a leading spokesperson for the ex-gay movement who ended up reverting himself?

You are thinking of Exodus International founders Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper. They realized that the ministry was damaging more people than it was helping and after several years with Exodus lest the organization. They ended up marrying each other in 1982.

 

[SnowBear]

If someone "converts" from homosexuality, does that mean they no longer like Judy Garland, Cher, or Broadway musicals?

I don’t like any of those things now.

 

[ahab]

Hi Mpshiel,



Most of what Courage stand for and do is positively helpful.

However as to the thread, Courage doesn’t give us the answer how 'ex -gay'

Can you grow to love someone without necessarily they making you sexual excited and enter into marriage with them?

What do you mean by ‘love’ The love that is God is agape and is not dependent on sexual attraction, its a sacrificial love. The basis of marriage is a creation covenant Matt 19, Gen 2, agape love should be there as the anchor. One would also expect sexual attraction, but then that doesn’t mean the husband and wife wont also be sexually attracted to others, its just that Jesus teaches against that adultery.

Futhermore, there are plenty of single and celibate Christians who are attracted sexually, but who cant or don’t find a partner. I didn’t say I wouldn’t become a Christian unless I could get married. In fact it wasnt till i became a Christian that I got married.

 

[kdet]

Information and testimonials about ex homosexuals

http://www.pfox.org/Testimonials.asp
http://www.lovewonout.com/
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rossuk/h-exgay.htm

 

[SnowBear]

Testimony of ex-ex-gays:

Wade Richards:

“I knew I was still gay, but the question for me was, What kind of life could I lead? You wouldn’t believe the amount of material LaBarbera has about the gay community in his office. He has so much pornography there. It all seemed very political and ugly.”

“The ex-gay movement was telling me that I needed to have male friends and to have heterosexual role models and to reconcile with my father,” he said. “I fit into their analysis of the causes of homosexuality perfectly. And I did need all those things to feel better about myself. The irony is that the movement helped me become a lot more confident and self-assured. I met a lot of good people there, people who would have laid down their lives for me, and that experience eventually gave me the confidence to come out.”

Richards also credits his father. “I called my dad up at one point and told him what was going on,” he said. “We were not really very close since he had left home. He said, ‘Son, some people are left-handed, and some people are right-handed. You should just be who you are. That’s OK with me.’ For my Harley-Davidson–riding dad to say that to me, well, it just lifted a huge weight off my shoulders.”

http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/821/821_exexgay.asp





Peterson ToscanoToscano spent 17 years and over $30,000 attempting to transform himself into a heterosexual. He did not become straight, but he lived to tell the tale through performance, writing, and the spoken word.

http://a_musing.blogspot.com/





Doug Upchurch

"I wondered why all of these people who said they were Christian and gay were so okay with it," says Upchurch. "How does that happen and how does that work, and why is it that certain churches say one thing about homosexuality and certain other churches don't say that at all? I was really beginning to see the discrepancies, which I think I always knew were there - but before, I always said, 'Oh well, those people just aren't saved.' Now I was really beginning to question it."

The next week he told Hope, one of his closest friends from church, that he was questioning some of his beliefs about homosexuality. She said they could no longer be friends. "I thought, What do you mean, we can't be friends anymore?" says Upchurch. "What's that about?"

That weekend, he was to attend a dinner at the home of Brian and Janet, some other friends from church. He called them to tell them about his conversation with Hope. Brian told him that it would be best if he didn't come.

"I hung up the phone. I just lost it," says Upchurch. "I thought, This is not what love is all about. This is not what Christianity is about. It's not about turning your back on somebody because they're questioning something or going through a thought process - something's really not right with this picture. I still wasn't sure that I could accept my sexuality, but I knew something was off. I didn't go back to church after that experience."

A month later it was announced from the pulpit of the church that Upchurch had been "turned over to Satan." It was suggested that members of the congregation not associate with him.

http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/exgay2.htm