EV's...

[Carl Emerson]

Consider also the 'embedded energy' expended during manufacture...

Discussion welcome...

 

[Shemjaza]

Consider also the 'embedded energy' expended during manufacture...

Discussion welcome...

It is a very legitimate concern... but there is the economy of scale, even with the vastly inferior coal fuel you get more energy from giant power stations than from individual petrol engines.

There's also the fact that upgrading the power network to more renewable automatically upgrades the electric vehicles dependent on it.

 

[Sabertooth]

(So, Alfred E. Neuman sells cars now...!?)

 

[Shemjaza]

(So, Alfred E. Neuman sells cars now...!?)

That's clearly AV1611Vet.

 

[Carl Emerson]

(So, Alfred E. Neuman sells cars now...!?)

Yes - he looked familiar...

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Consider also the 'embedded energy' expended during manufacture...

Discussion welcome...

Yes that was going to be my point! So much of the Green energy is wrong headed. Unless their is a major tech advance, like something out of science fiction, like cold fusion etc. it is always going to take more energy to produce this stuff than what we get out of it. It is basic physics (an effect cannot be greater than its cause).


On top of it as much politicians want it our power grid cannot take it. With all the windmills and solar panels the grid has become less reliable with weather conditions and people needing to run more air conditioning, or heating. This tend to result in brown outs, and this problem gets worse the more electric vehicles you add to the grid.

 

[Shemjaza]

Yes that was going to be my point! So much of the Green energy is wrong headed. Unless their is a major tech advance, like something out of science fiction, like cold fusion etc. it is always going to take more energy to produce this stuff than what we get out of it. It is basic physics (an effect cannot be greater than its cause).


On top of it as much politicians want it our power grid cannot take it. With all the windmills and solar panels the grid has become less reliable with weather conditions and people needing to run more air conditioning, or heating. This tend to result in brown outs, and this problem gets worse the more electric vehicles you add to the grid.

Batteries and electric vehicles aren't about producing energy, they are about transferring energy from efficient power generators to the place where the energy gets used rather than having separate power generation on each machine.

Gris based power also allows for the integration of multiple power generation methods.

It's possible that an area would need a large scale base load from Coal or Nuclear power, but you could have other power from solar and wind, and even small scale generators that can be spun up temporarily when needed from gas or recycled garbage.

It's also important not to forget that costs such as initial production cost in money or energy can change as the technology matures and scale changes.

 

[Leaf473]

Consider also the 'embedded energy' expended during manufacture...

Discussion welcome...

As a bicyclist, my input is that I like the idea of the pollution being somewhere else.

It's not a perfect solution, of course. IMO another good step would be self-driving electric taxis.

 

[David's Harp]

Consider also the 'embedded energy' expended during manufacture...

Discussion welcome...

Hi Carl, I like that meme. I think it represents what's called "greenwashing". The carbon cost in the production and subsequent running of some EV's is high, but it is believed this will lessen over time. There's also the possibility of EV's being able to feed back into the grid.

I think they are a better alternative to fossil fuel vehicles, but only where you don't need to travel great distances.
I can't help but think there may be alternative fuels that are better - such as hydrogen - but that these are not economically viable. In other words they wouldn't be able to make enough profit from them.

Anyway, just for fun, I'll put in this meme that I quite like:

 

[David's Harp]

Oops! I've messed up in that above post. First time trying to load an image here.

 

[prodromos]

Even the 'green' energy sources are not so green when you get into the details. Wind power uses large fibreglass blades which cannot be readily recycled when they inevitably wear out and also cause the death of many birds. Solar panels have a limited life before they too go into landfill and end up poisoning the soil and then there is the battery storage which doesn't have the best life span before it too either becomes landfill or expensive recycling. Hydroelectric schemes have a massive cost in loss of environment when valleys are flooded.
By far the best option is nuclear, where the relatively small amount of waste is sealed and buried in the same mines the uranium was sourced.

 

[Shemjaza]

Even the 'green' energy sources are not so green when you get into the details. Wind power uses large fibreglass blades which cannot be readily recycled when they inevitably wear out and also cause the death of many birds. Solar panels have a limited life before they too go into landfill and end up poisoning the soil and then there is the battery storage which doesn't have the best life span before it too either becomes landfill or expensive recycling. Hydroelectric schemes have a massive cost in loss of environment when valleys are flooded.
By far the best option is nuclear, where the relatively small amount of waste is sealed and buried in the same mines the uranium was sourced.

Uranium power stations are immensely expensive to set up and unfortunately one of the rarest materials on the planet.

Plus when they go wrong, they go reeeealy wrong.

 

[prodromos]

Uranium power stations are immensely expensive to set up and unfortunately one of the rarest materials on the planet.

Plus when they go wrong, they go reeeealy wrong.

They rarely go wrong and we have learned from earlier mistakes. We have tons of uranium in Australia.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Consider also the 'embedded energy' expended during manufacture...

Discussion welcome...

I confess to being an EV fanboy. Just the lack of noise (I live near a busy highway) is a blessing. Driving behind filthy diesel exhaust spewing trucks is not my idea of fun. EV's have far less to go wrong. Electric motors are much more reliable than ICE. The cost savings are probably not worth the extra cost of an EV, but there are many other benefits.

Yes, there is an issue with the electricity supply. However, refining fossil fuels is energy intensive. Coal fired power stations are being replaced with (comparatively) clean energy sources. Many people could install solar and charge from home, or use off peak power which helps stabilise the grid. Would you not like a car that you could power your home from in the event of a power failure? That's possible with an EV.

In any event, EV's are coming, like it or not. Supply, not demand, is the real issue for now.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Oops! I've messed up in that above post. First time trying to load an image here.

Welcome to CF - take your time...

You can paste an image direct into the post.

 

[eleos1954]

Consider also the 'embedded energy' expended during manufacture...

Discussion welcome...

hmmm .... what's more important ... food and shelter for your family .... or an EV?

that is about where most are at in their lives ... they can't afford both .... some are struggling with food and shelter ... much less anything else

 

[Shemjaza]

hmmm .... what's more important ... food and shelter for your family .... or an EV?

that is about where most are at in their lives ... they can't afford both .... some are struggling with food and shelter ... much less anything else

Almost all attempts to frame environmental protection or power infrastructure as the responsibilities of individuals are false distractions.

The widespread use of electric versus fossil fuel vehicles are about policy decisions on a national or international level.

There isn't a fundamental barrier between EV becoming affordable for general use, it's the priorities of governments and market leaders.

 

[Carl Emerson]

hmmm .... what's more important ... food and shelter for your family .... or an EV?

that is about where most are at in their lives ... they can't afford both .... some are struggling with food and shelter ... much less anything else

Yes - that opens a whole different issue...

 

[eleos1954]

Almost all attempts to frame environmental protection or power infrastructure as the responsibilities of individuals are false distractions.

The widespread use of electric versus fossil fuel vehicles are about policy decisions on a national or international level.

There isn't a fundamental barrier between EV becoming affordable for general use, it's the priorities of governments and market leaders.

well the priorities are causing a whole bunch of suffering ... that is except for governments and market leaders.

 

[David's Harp]

Welcome to CF - take your time...

You can paste an image direct into the post.

Thank you Carl. God Bless.