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Evolution's Brick Wall: Part II

Heissonear

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From the fossil record, it looks like the creatures were Created and stayed that way. Nothing evolved into something else.

Answer the items in posts #7 and #9. Mankind has found zero occasions of a series of fossils showing one creature evolved into another. Zero.

Yes, this is very unusual if evolution even weakly happened. We should find at least once (or more) one creaturing changing into another creature somewhere on Earth. But the fossils show evolution never happened. Not even once.

As far as lower to higher lifeforms sequence, what would the Creator do? It is His world. Would He want to have you push Him to the side, in calling the shots? What an awesome Being He is. And to ignore Him? I left such foolish "there is no God" days.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You say if they breed they are the same kind, but the end members of the ring cannot interbreed with each other. So how does your non-evolutionary hypothesis explain that?

That's what they said about Darwins finches for close to 180 years too....

That's what they said about Lions and Tigers for decades.....

That's what they said about Grizzly Bears and Polar Bears.....

That's what they said about Mules.....

They've said that many, many times..... and then when they find them interbreeding right in front of their noses, refuse to correct their mistakes in classification.....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I don’t recall adding imaginary creatures, what post was that?

“It doesn’t need explaining” indeed, I wonder why?

Scapegoat....

What, you are not willing to stand behind your own theory and man up to those "missing common ancestors"???????


Suddenly feel the need to dodge and duck and run?????

Doesn't seem to me you have too much confidence in your own theory to need to dodge and duck........

Not feeling confident enough to own up to your "missing common ancestors" that can never be found for any proposed split? I don't blame you. Now not having an ancestor or two is understandable, but then postulating missing ones that split to become others, not of their kind, well that's a whole new ballgame...

And that game has already been a strikeout or no hitter.....
 
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Jimmy D

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Scapegoat....

What, you are not willing to stand behind your own theory and man up to those "missing common ancestors"???????


Suddenly feel the need to dodge and duck and run?????

Doesn't seem to me you have too much confidence in your own theory to need to dodge and duck........

:scratch: I'm not dodging anything, no one is denying that there are gaps in the fossil record.

Not feeling confident enough to own up to your "missing common ancestors" that can never be found for any proposed split? I don't blame you. Now not having an ancestor or two is understandable, but then postulating missing ones that split to become others, not of their kind, well that's a whole new ballgame...

And that game has already been a strikeout or no hitter.....

"Never be found", that remains to be seen.

It sounds like Tiktaalik would be a good example of what you're describing.... It was "postulated", the evolutionary timeline and biogeography was used to predict it's wherabouts, and it was discovered.

Anyway I remain optimistic that, as we're getting better at locating them, more fossils will be discovered that fill in those gaps you mention and that with each discovery your denials will appear increasingly ridiculous.

Hopefully this answers your question to your satisfaction, now maybe you could answer mine without changing the subject again?

How does the fossil record support creationism?

(By which I mean all animals appearing on the same day and existing at the same time.)
 
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Heissonear

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I asked you to explain ring species, not quote another source. I didn't require an explanation and had I done so I would hardly have addressed my enquiry to someone who denies evolutionary theory and has almost no knowledge of it.

As Warden of the Storm notes, it is clear from your response that you do not understand ring species. You say if they breed they are the same kind, but the end members of the ring cannot interbreed with each other. So how does your non-evolutionary hypothesis explain that?

In your own words!

No quoting of creationist websites.

Justify your rejection of evolutionary theory regarding ring species in your own words. (By now you should be aware of the alternative.)
This thread is not about mechanisms of how evolution works.

Another thread had been made for such discussion.

This thread is about the fossil record itself.
 
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Ophiolite

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This thread is not about mechanisms of how evolution works.

Another thread had been made for such discussion.

This thread is about the fossil record itself.
Since it is clear that you have zero understanding of the fossil record what are you doing here? Oh, that's right. Preaching. Your preaching is falling on stony ground. And those stones reveal a rich fossil record that demonstrates evolution.

From the fossil record, it looks like the creatures were Created and stayed that way. Nothing evolved into something else.

Answer the items in posts #7 and #9. Mankind has found zero occasions of a series of fossils showing one creature evolved into another. Zero.

Yes, this is very unusual if evolution even weakly happened. We should find at least once (or more) one creaturing changing into another creature somewhere on Earth. But the fossils show evolution never happened. Not even once.

As far as lower to higher lifeforms sequence, what would the Creator do? It is His world. Would He want to have you push Him to the side, in calling the shots? What an awesome Being He is. And to ignore Him? I left such foolish "there is no God" days.
If there were meaningful content in your post it would merit a proper reply. Delusional assertions void of support merit nothing, which is exactly what you will get from me in future. It's been miserable talking to you. Adieu.
 
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Heissonear

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Not really.
Because if we present you with fossil sequence A, B and C, you'll ask for fossils "between creatures A and B and between B and C".

We then show you fossil AB, between A and B.
You'll then come back again with "what about between A and AB???? CONJECTURE!"

And so it will continue. Such a bizar trail of thought only can end up in requiring a fossil of EVERY generation of whatever lineage is being talked about.

And I suspect that even if we could show you that, you still wouldn't be satisfied and you'ld still be repeating the same PRATTs as you do in the OP. And almost every subsequent post.



See? Like here, where you again repeat this same PRATT.



I'll just repeat my question that you have ignored dozens of times.

Consider the "feet to flippers" picture.
What's missing from that fossil sequence?
What should change before you'll accept the middle ones as transitional between the ones on both ends?

I'm not expecting an honest answer to this question, just so you know.
I expect the same as always as a "response": you'll quote this post, not address a single point raise, not answer a single question asked and just repeat your same OP claims.
You would not go back to post #7 to understand the missing fossils, so I will present a section of post #7 to show the specific fossils missing.

Screenshot_20181011-133825.jpg


Please reply to the last part of the insert.

Or are they missing as I claim.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You would not go back to post #7 to understand the missing fossils, so I will present a section of post #7 to show the specific fossils missing.

View attachment 243105

Please reply to the last part of the insert.

Or are they missing as I claim.

Why does it matter if the specific fossils between those two animals can't be found? We have fossils of the Ambulocetus and the Remingtonocetus, why is that enough for you? Do you want archaeologists to find the transitional fossils for every animal that existed in Earth's history?
Basically, you're acting exactly like Dr. Banjo from the Futurama episode, A Clockwork Origin, shown here:
 
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AV1611VET

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Justatruthseeker

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:scratch: I'm not dodging anything, no one is denying that there are gaps in the fossil record.



"Never be found", that remains to be seen.

NEVER.......

It sounds like Tiktaalik would be a good example of what you're describing.... It was "postulated", the evolutionary timeline and biogeography was used to predict it's wherabouts, and it was discovered.

Tiktaalik is just another amphibian from which today's amphibians are descended.... It led to nothing else. It will remain the same for any of them you find....

Anyway I remain optimistic that, as we're getting better at locating them, more fossils will be discovered that fill in those gaps you mention and that with each discovery your denials will appear increasingly ridiculous.

Nope. They will never fill in the gaps, because there are no gaps... The imaginary gaps you think exist are not there, any more than gaps exist between a wolf and a poodle. Those gaps are in your imagination because you are trying to link totally separate and distinct creatures that were never linked.....


Hopefully this answers your question to your satisfaction, now maybe you could answer mine without changing the subject again?

How does the fossil record support creationism?

(By which I mean all animals appearing on the same day and existing at the same time.)

Why would confusing Tiktaalik as a transitory creature between distinct kinds answer my question to satisfaction? It's not transitory anymore than a wolf is transitory to a separate species....

Appearing on the same day? Where did you get the idea that sea life appeared the same day as animals????

Ahhh, I see, you confuse life that cant move quickly being buried first as order.....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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What evolution progression???? They are already arguing against Tiktaalik and have been... You all just have no clue as to what is occurring.... Tiktaalik is on its way to dethronement....

Pandericthys.JPG


https://evolutionnews.org/2008/09/the_rise_and_fall_of_tiktaalik/

"The latest retroactive confessions of evolutionist ignorance comes on the heels of a published re-analysis of the bones of Panderichthys. The study used CT scans to show Panderichthys apparently had a few well-defined radial bones in its pectoral fins. (Radial bones are found only in fish fins, but evolutionary paleontologists contend that radial bones are homologous to digits in tetrapod limbs.) When commenting on this new find, the paper’s lead author, Catherine A. Boisvert, boasted in an interview with The Scientist that “it is now completely proven that fingers have evolved from distal radials already present in fish that gave rise to the tetrapod.” Boisvert also praised her findings, stating: “The disposition of distal radials in Panderichthys are much more tetrapod-like than in Tiktaalik.”"

"Confident that Panderichthys fossil showed evolution better than Tiktaalik, Darwinists then proceeded to admit striking criticisms of Tiktaalik: The Scientist article stated, “Previous data from another ancient fish called Tiktaalik showed distal radials as well — although the quality of that specimen was poor. And the orientation of the radials did not seem to match the way modern fingers and toes radiate from a joint, parallel to each other.” (emphasis added)"

"The “quality” of Tiktaalik as a fossil specimen was “poor”? When did we see evolutionists admit this previously? Never. They wouldn’t dare make such admissions until they thought they had something better."

"Michael Coates, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago, called the new findings “intriguing” but is not convinced that the digit-like structures in Panderichthys’s fin are the equivalent of our fingers.

For one thing, they seem unusually flat for radial bones, Coates said.

“Radials are generally cylindrical. When you look at [a] cross-section [of the digit], they’re dumbbell-shaped.”

The structures are so peculiar, they might just be fragments of damaged bone, he added.

"one of the paper’s co-authors Per Ahlberg said that if Tiktaalik were to remain the form that is closer to tetrapods, then “finger development took a step backward with Tiktaalik, and that Tiktaalik’s fins represented an evolutionary return to a more primitive form.”"

"Panderichthys possesses relatively few tetrapod synapomorphies, and provides only partial insight into the origin of major features of the skull, limbs and axial skeleton of early tetrapods. In view of the morphological gap between elpistostegalian fish and tetrapods, the phylogenetic framework for the immediate sister group of tetrapods has been incomplete and our understanding of major anatomical transformations at the fish-tetrapod transition has remained limited.

(Edward B. Daeschler, Neil H. Shubin, and Farish A. Jenkins, “A Devonian tetrapod-like fish and the evolution of the tetrapod body plan,” Nature, Vol. 440:757-763 (April 6, 2006).)"

Fossil Fishes and Amphibians

Micromelerpeton credneri
MB.Am.1183

This small amphibian species found in the Lower Permian lake sediments in Rhineland-Palatinate mostly remained at a larval stage and breathed via external gills. This specimen was found by Ernst Edinger near Odernheim and purchased by Museum für Naturkunde in 1998 as part of a larger collection. Detailed studies of this specimen showed that there are malformations at its front as well as its hind legs, which could be interpreted as failed regeneration. It could thus be demonstrated that even early tetrapods had the potential for leg regeneration, an ability only preserved in today’s salamanders and newts."

because that is what they are... the ancestors of salamanders and newts....

Just as the wolf is the ancestor to Poodles and pugs......
 
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Shemjaza

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What evolution progression???? They are already arguing against Tiktaalik and have been... You all just have no clue as to what is occurring.... Tiktaalik is on its way to dethronement....

View attachment 243118

https://evolutionnews.org/2008/09/the_rise_and_fall_of_tiktaalik/

"The latest retroactive confessions of evolutionist ignorance comes on the heels of a published re-analysis of the bones of Panderichthys. The study used CT scans to show Panderichthys apparently had a few well-defined radial bones in its pectoral fins. (Radial bones are found only in fish fins, but evolutionary paleontologists contend that radial bones are homologous to digits in tetrapod limbs.) When commenting on this new find, the paper’s lead author, Catherine A. Boisvert, boasted in an interview with The Scientist that “it is now completely proven that fingers have evolved from distal radials already present in fish that gave rise to the tetrapod.” Boisvert also praised her findings, stating: “The disposition of distal radials in Panderichthys are much more tetrapod-like than in Tiktaalik.”"

"Confident that Panderichthys fossil showed evolution better than Tiktaalik, Darwinists then proceeded to admit striking criticisms of Tiktaalik: The Scientist article stated, “Previous data from another ancient fish called Tiktaalik showed distal radials as well — although the quality of that specimen was poor. And the orientation of the radials did not seem to match the way modern fingers and toes radiate from a joint, parallel to each other.” (emphasis added)"

"The “quality” of Tiktaalik as a fossil specimen was “poor”? When did we see evolutionists admit this previously? Never. They wouldn’t dare make such admissions until they thought they had something better."

"Michael Coates, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago, called the new findings “intriguing” but is not convinced that the digit-like structures in Panderichthys’s fin are the equivalent of our fingers.

For one thing, they seem unusually flat for radial bones, Coates said.

“Radials are generally cylindrical. When you look at [a] cross-section [of the digit], they’re dumbbell-shaped.”

The structures are so peculiar, they might just be fragments of damaged bone, he added.

"one of the paper’s co-authors Per Ahlberg said that if Tiktaalik were to remain the form that is closer to tetrapods, then “finger development took a step backward with Tiktaalik, and that Tiktaalik’s fins represented an evolutionary return to a more primitive form.”"

"Panderichthys possesses relatively few tetrapod synapomorphies, and provides only partial insight into the origin of major features of the skull, limbs and axial skeleton of early tetrapods. In view of the morphological gap between elpistostegalian fish and tetrapods, the phylogenetic framework for the immediate sister group of tetrapods has been incomplete and our understanding of major anatomical transformations at the fish-tetrapod transition has remained limited.

(Edward B. Daeschler, Neil H. Shubin, and Farish A. Jenkins, “A Devonian tetrapod-like fish and the evolution of the tetrapod body plan,” Nature, Vol. 440:757-763 (April 6, 2006).)"

Fossil Fishes and Amphibians

Micromelerpeton credneri
MB.Am.1183

This small amphibian species found in the Lower Permian lake sediments in Rhineland-Palatinate mostly remained at a larval stage and breathed via external gills. This specimen was found by Ernst Edinger near Odernheim and purchased by Museum für Naturkunde in 1998 as part of a larger collection. Detailed studies of this specimen showed that there are malformations at its front as well as its hind legs, which could be interpreted as failed regeneration. It could thus be demonstrated that even early tetrapods had the potential for leg regeneration, an ability only preserved in today’s salamanders and newts."

because that is what they are... the ancestors of salamanders and newts....

Just as the wolf is the ancestor to Poodles and pugs......
Wait a second.

Are you seriously comfortable with a Devonian fish with lungs being an ancestor to modern amphibians... but the vastly more similar humans and chimps had to be magiced separately?
 
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DogmaHunter

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You would not go back to post #7 to understand the missing fossils, so I will present a section of post #7 to show the specific fossils missing.

View attachment 243105

Please reply to the last part of the insert.

Or are they missing as I claim.

I asked you specifically about the feet to flippers picture.

Why is it so hard for you to actually answer the question that is being asked?
 
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46AND2

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You then have to accept how that happened.... that breeding was two to three times greater at producing new genetic variation than mutations.

:doh::doh:

lol, breeding doesn't produce new genetic variation, mutations do. Breeding is just another form of SELECTING those variations...It's ARTIFICIAL selection, instead of NATURAL selection.

Whether it is artificial selection, or natural selection, they both simply affect the frequency of the alleles. The alleles still happen, whether you are breeding or not.
 
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Jimmy D

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Wait a second.

Are you seriously comfortable with a Devonian fish with lungs being an ancestor to modern amphibians... but the vastly more similar humans and chimps had to be magiced separately?

He actually thinks chimps are devolved (reversed evolved) from early hominids I believe.

I can't see much difference between that and "macro"evolution except in the direction. Both would contradict his claims of..

Distinct kinds that appear suddenly and during the entire time of their existence never change at all.....
 
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Heissonear

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I asked you specifically about the feet to flippers picture.

Why is it so hard for you to actually answer the question that is being asked?
You were shown two macro-assemblages of the feet to flippers, did you know that?

And then asked to provide the fossils inbetween those creatures.

Now present the fossils os said Amublocidae to Rimingtoncetidae.

Screenshot_20181011-133825.jpg
 
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Heissonear

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:doh::doh:

lol, breeding doesn't produce new genetic variation, mutations do. Breeding is just another form of SELECTING those variations...It's ARTIFICIAL selection, instead of NATURAL selection.

Whether it is artificial selection, or natural selection, they both simply affect the frequency of the alleles. The alleles still happen, whether you are breeding or not.
Ah, yes, how evolution science itself has evolved into a mess.

How mutations are no longer needed, but other biochemical and genetic responses can bring new creatures over time.

But this thread is for fossils, and there is another thread for principles presented by evolutionists over time to explain how evolution works. Meet you there.
 
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46AND2

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Ah, yes, how evolution science itself has evolved into a mess.

How mutations are no longer needed, but other biochemical and genetic responses can bring new creatures over time.

But this thread is for fossils, and there is another thread for principles presented by evolutionists over time to explain how evolution works. Meet you there.

Perhaps you should go after Justa for off-topic comments then...since, you know, he's the one who brought up that particular topic.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Wait a second.

Are you seriously comfortable with a Devonian fish with lungs being an ancestor to modern amphibians... but the vastly more similar humans and chimps had to be magiced separately?

I'm quite comfortable with amphibians being ancestors to amphibians.... canines to canines...... felines to felines...... finches to finches...... apes to apes...... and humans to humans......

It didn't have lungs any more than todays amphibians have fully functional lungs as you want to imply...... It had air sacs.....

Although we could debate that too, since you just got bones.......

Oh wait, Coelecanth has those too..... And after being told for 50 years how it was transitory, well, that didn't pan out too well in the end.... and neither will this incorrect belief of Tiktaalik....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You omnipotent now?



Which amphibians? How can it "remain the same" if it's evolved into frogs, newts etc?



Er, I should imagine that there are a few gaps between Tik and Toad. And now you're implying a wolf gave birth to a poodle?

You're all over the shop mate.



So Tik was one of these original specially created kinds that gave birth to all modern amphibians?

So this is impossible...

tiktaalik_phylo.jpg


But this isn't...

lead_720_405.png


Atelopus_zeteki1.jpg


Yeah, makes a lot of sense.

Your strawmen are just outrageous.

You cant see the difference between wolf to poodle (same species) and claiming something split to become a complete new form?????

Are you that gone that you must resort to such sad, sad, strawmen?

Wait a minute now. I said salamanders, not frogs.....

it's YOU that think they are the same, not me....

tiktaalik 2.jpg
mud puppy.jpg


Similarities? Oh my yes....

tiktaalik 2.jpg
Kermit.jpg


Similarities? not so much.......
 

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