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Evolutionists - How You're Fooling Yourself

lifepsyop

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Today we are sold the idea that the conventional animal group transitions held by evolutionists today (reptile-mammals / dinosaur-birds / archaeoceti-whales, etc.) constitutes some sort of rigorous test of the theory, and that if these supposed 'links' were not found, Evolution would have been in some kind of jeopardy for lack of evidence... This is not true. Evolution theory could have easily molded itself around extremely different transitional animal group narratives if it had been constrained by the data in different ways, as will be demonstrated.


For an example, lets look at the fact that leading early evolutionary proponents such as Thomas Huxley strongly advocated for an amphibian-mammal transition.

From Peter Bowler's "Life's Splendid Drama" p.280

Thomas Huxley argued on morphological grounds that the mammals were so different from any known reptile, living or fossil, that the class would have to be traced back directly to the amphibians...
Huxley's 1879 paper "On the Character of the Pelvis in Mammalia, and the Conclusions Respecting the Origin of Mammals Which May Be Based on Them" Here Huxley took issue with Gegenbaur on the interpretation of the pelvis, insisting that the reptilian modifications were opposite to those found in mammals.... Thus, argued Huxley, "it seems to be useless to attempt to seek among any known Sauropsida [reptiles] for the kind of pelvis which analogy leads us to expect among those vertebrated animals which immediately preceded the lowest known mammals." The Promammalia would have had a pelvis intermediate between that of the platypus and that of a land tortoise, and this would have been the type from which all modifications of the Sauropsida and Mammalia had diverged. This type, he claimed, could be seen in the pelvis of the salamander. Hence, "these facts appear to me to point to the conclusion that the Mammalia have been connected with Amphibia by some unknown 'pro-mammalian' group, and not by any of the known forms of Sauropsida." There was other evidence pointing in the same direction, especially the fact that the main conduit of the arterial blood from the heart is the right aortic arch in the Sauropsida, but the left in Mammalia. The implication was that two lines of evolution had diverged from the heart of Amphibia.

(A quote John Woodmorappe:)

"What if mammal-like reptiles never existed? Would evolutionary theory be crippled? Certainly not. Evolutionary theory is so plastic that any series of observations in the natural world could be cited in its favour!

Clearly, the ruling evolutionary paradigm existed before the discovery of mammal-like reptiles, and would have flourished had these reptiles never been discovered. In that event, today’s evolutionists would be extolling some extinct amphibian group as the transitions (or stratomorphic intermediates) leading up to mammals. Cladograms would be constructed to show the close branching pattern between that chosen group of amphibians and mammals.

All else would fall in place according to the dictates of evolutionary dogma. The evolutionist triumphalists would be telling everyone that evolution is fact because of the many obvious similarities between the ‘ancestral’ amphibians and the ‘descendant’ mammals.

Compromising evangelical evolutionists would preach about the fact that God would never mislead us by separately creating mammals and amphibians with so many shared structures.


Leading humanist scientists would inform us that anyone who questions the amphibian-mammalian transition cannot possibly be a scientist, no matter his degrees or publications.


And, of course, the secularist fanatics would whip up considerable hysteria about the fact that the questioning of the amphibian–mammalian transition is a dangerous threat to the very survival of science and reason, and that, if not quickly reversed, it will soon return us to the Dark Ages."

http://creation.com/...discontinuities


Next lets look at the fact that, even as recently as the last couple decades, based on multiple lines of morphological and molecular data, some evolutionists were seriously proposing that birds are most closely related to mammals.

from 1991. Amniote phylogeny. In Schultze, H.-P. & Trueb, L. (eds) Origins of the Higher Groups of Tetrapods: Controversy and Consensus. p.320

... Gardiner (1982) proposed a rather revolutionary cladogram in which the Diapsida and the Archosauria were separated, and the birds were a sister-group of the mammals. He listed 28 postulated bird-mammal synapomorphies-i.e., shared characters of the brain case, brain, snout, vertebral column, circulatory system, glands, and physiology (both groups being endothermic)...
Lovtrup (1985) proposed a third cladogram, which also involved a breakup of the Diapsida and Archosauria, and the establishment of a bird-mammal clade, the Haemothermia. He also split up the Lepidosauria, making the squamates and the tuatara the most primitive amniote groups.
Independent lines of evidence for amniote phylogeny have been obtained from studies of amino acid sequences in proteins... These have given rise to a number of maximum parsimony trees. The majority of these protein-based phylogenetic trees hypothesizes a sister-group relationship between birds and mammals, in apparent support of the morphological views of Gardiner (1982) and Lovtrup (1985).

A hypothesized common ancestor of the birds and mammals:
(Janvier, P. 1984. El divorcio del ave y del cocodrilo. Mundo Cientifico 32, 14-16.)
Janvier-1984-proto-haematotherm-yes-might-make-a-nice-pet-Ocot-2012-Darren-Naish-Tetrapod-Zoology-330-px-tiny.jpg



Evolutionists response to these criticisms have been something along the lines of "Well, those researchers weren't looking at all the data, and now we know that they were wrong." But here evolutionists will try and avoid the clear implications on the inherent malleability of their theory. The point is not whether most recent data supposedly supports conventional evolutionary relationships. The point is that, even in the absence of the data claimed to support current evolutionary models, the theory is demonstrably plastic enough to have simply conformed itself to entirely different lines of data and thus formed entirely different evolutionary narratives.


The Fossil Record in general, is something evolution theory has molded itself around in reaction to the paleontological developments of the 18th and 19th centuries. Evolution didn't predict the fossil record, it accommodated it. There has been much tough talk from evolutionists claiming a major strength of their theory in that we generally do not find the major mammal groupings anywhere below the upper Mesozoic and Cenozoic rocks. But Evolution theory doesn't predict this... It doesn't predict mammals will evolve ever, nor (as has been demonstrated), the animal group mammals descended from, much less the specific geologic timing...

If, in the earlier centuries, an alternative fossil pattern had emerged of mammalian groups appearing in the lower Mesozoic, or even the Paleozoic, Evolution theory could simply have molded itself around these discoveries, and today one of the major tenets of the theory might proclaim "The Great Mammalian Radiation Event of the Permian" or something of the like.



(Nothing about the theory explains why we shouldn't find this... that's just not what we found and evolution theory molds itself around the fossil record and then pretends that it explains it.)



If such hypothetical fossil features appeared more enigmatic in comparison to today's conventional models, it would simply be treated as an 'evolutionary mystery', much like the Cambrian Explosion is today. Likewise, critics would be scolded for using "God of the Gaps" arguments for pointing out the enigma of mammals appearing in the Permian, etc.


Conclusion: There is no 'test' or prediction of evolution theory being fulfilled when we are presented the most recent transitional evolution stories. It merely reflects its nature of accommodation, as the amorphous fog-like evolution theory adapts itself to the shifting landscapes of data.
 

freezerman2000

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Do Creationists look at all of the evidence given,agree with what they like and disregard what they don't..even if it what they don't like has been proven?
A scientific method like that is not science at all,just opinions that do not hold water.
Seriously look at the ENTIRE picture,study it,speak with your own voice instead of C&Ping in order to be taken with a grain of salt.
Links to back up what you say is a much better format for debate.
 
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lifepsyop

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Do Creationists look at all of the evidence given,agree with what they like and disregard what they don't..even if it what they don't like has been proven?
A scientific method like that is not science at all,just opinions that do not hold water.
Seriously look at the ENTIRE picture,study it,speak with your own voice instead of C&Ping in order to be taken with a grain of salt.
Links to back up what you say is a much better format for debate.

So you were unable to respond to anything I wrote. Does it make you uncomfortable to see how jello-like your materialistic belief system is?

And I'm sure I've studied evolution theory much more than you have.

And I assembled this post and tracked down all the references myself. I did not copy and paste it from somewhere, if that's what you're implying.
 
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freezerman2000

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So you were unable to respond to anything I wrote. Does it make you uncomfortable to see how jello-like your materialistic belief system is?

And I'm sure I've studied evolution theory much more than you have.

And I assembled this post and tracked down all the references myself. I did not copy and paste it from somewhere, if that's what you're implying.

I don't respond to posts that have C&P all over them.The bright colored sections right after a link is highly suspect.
Like I said,look at the entire picture..pictures with holes cut in them are garbage,not conveying the entire message the artist intended.

All I see is ridicule for a scientific theory,something that is unworthy of commenting on.
 
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High Fidelity

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Of course evolution can be tested. Most things are 'tested' through observation.

If by tested you mean we can't create a time machine, go billions of years into the future and observe different animal species to see how they've changed, perhaps with climate change for example, then sure, we can't do that.

What can be done is look at evidence that not only supports the theory, it fits hand-in-hand with the process undergone to achieve what we are today.
 
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lifepsyop

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I don't respond to posts that have C&P all over them.

The best you can do, huh? Put up or shut up then. Do an internet search for the post. You will find it at exactly one other location, and that is on another forum also posted by myself, Lifepsyop.

Now please stop littering the thread with your baseless accusations.
 
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lifepsyop

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What can be done is look at evidence that not only supports the theory, it fits hand-in-hand with the process undergone to achieve what we are today.

No, evolution theory is simply plastic enough to be molded around whatever the data is. It doesn't predict or explain the data, it merely accommodates the data.
 
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High Fidelity

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No, evolution theory is simply plastic enough to be molded around whatever the data is. It doesn't predict or explain the data, it merely accommodates the data.

Well, if you're that arrogant and assertive of said arrogance, I think I'll continue my conversation with a brick wall.
 
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Loudmouth

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Today we are sold the idea that the conventional animal group transitions held by evolutionists today (reptile-mammals / dinosaur-birds / archaeoceti-whales, etc.) constitutes some sort of rigorous test of the theory, and that if these supposed 'links' were not found, Evolution would have been in some kind of jeopardy for lack of evidence... This is not true.

We do have the fossil evidence, including fossil hominids. Darwin himself spoke of the affinity of apes and man, and sure enough, we have the transitionals.

famtree3b.gif


You are actually putting an idea forward where evolutionists are being fooled because we have fossil evidence. I would call that extremely silly.

On top of that, the genetic evidence is overwhelming.

"Arguments against macroevolution, based on so-called gaps in the fossil records, are also profoundly weakened by the much more detailed and digital information revealed from the study of genomes. Outside of a time machine, Darwin could hardly have imagined a more powerful data set than comparative genomics to confirm his theory."--Dr. Francis Collins, "Faith and the Human Genome"
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF9-03Collins.pdf

I would suggest that you read the entire essay. It is written for christians by a christian, and a very prominent christian scientist at that (Dr. Collins ran the Human Genome Project and is currently the head of the National Institutes of Health).

Conclusion: There is no 'test' or prediction of evolution theory being fulfilled when we are presented the most recent transitional evolution stories. It merely reflects its nature of accommodation, as the amorphous fog-like evolution theory adapts itself to the shifting landscapes of data.

Baloney. The theory is easily testable. All you need to show is numerous and obvious violations of the nested hierarchy, and such things as rabbits in the Precambrian era.
 
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Loudmouth

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Papias

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lifepsyop-

First of all, kudos for an op with a coherent idea, and with support for that idea. It's amazing how often people think that just tossing out an idea, out of ignorance, with no support, somehow is expected to pass for an actual point.

Your idea is that evolution (by which I think you mean Universal Common Ancestry - UCA, I clarify just to avoid concerns over defintions) - is so plastic as to be bendable to whatever evidence is found (that UCA is unfalsifiable). The fact that your support relies heavily on very old information is telling, since we've accumulated much more evidence, which cannot fit any other way - hence evolution (UCA) is very falsifiable.

An idea with the grand, sweeping impact of UCA leaves literally millions of areas were the evidence has to come up in a very specific way, otherwise it is powerful evidence against UCA. And literally millions of tests have been done in those areas.

For instance - lets look at just blood protein biochemistry. Blood proteins are not required by design considerations (say, upright walking), and are highly changeable due to protein shape. UCA predicts that for every single new species found, their blood proteins will be in accordance to the grand nested hierarchy of the Family Tree of common descent. And that's not just for lines of descent, or to show a family tree - but it showes the SAME family tree shown below. If not for common descent, this would be extremely unlikely (practically impossible). Yet, of the thousands of new species found, their blood proteins fit just as expected.


OK, now you can do the same thing with hormone chemistry, immune tags, and so on.

OK, so much for biochemistry. You can do the same thing with the fossil record ("no bats will be found in archean strata"), etc, again giving thousands of easily falsifiable predictions for all of the millions of places where excavations are happening. The same for Genetics. The same for physiology. The same for pathology. and so on. The point is that UCA makes literally hundreds of millions of eminently testable predictions, thousands of which are tested every year, over and over again showing the same family tree.


0282EUR.jpg


And yet, all of them keep coming back in support not just UCA, but UCA with the same family tree. That's month after month, year after year in thousands of studies and papers by millions of scientists, right now, next week, next month, next year, on and on.

Wow.


You couldn't ask for a more [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']falsifiable[/FONT], and more strongly confirmed, idea.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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lifepsyop

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lifepsyop-

First of all, kudos for an op with a coherent idea, and with support for that idea.

Thank you.

It's amazing how often people think that just tossing out an idea, out of ignorance, with no support, somehow is expected to pass for an actual point.

I really see this coming much more from evolutionists, almost always with the attitude that they are so beyond reproach that their ideas don't even have to make sense.

Your idea is that evolution (by which I think you mean Universal Common Ancestry - UCA, I clarify just to avoid concerns over defintions) -

Yes, thank you. I mean UCA. I usually try and be more specific to avoid equivocation tactics, but it gets tedious... and it really should be obvious what I'm talking about...

is so plastic as to be bendable to whatever evidence is found (that UCA is unfalsifiable). The fact that your support relies heavily on very old information is telling, since we've accumulated much more evidence, which cannot fit any other way - hence evolution (UCA) is very falsifiable.

The mammal-bird grouping proposal is actually from the 1990's. I think you're missing the point though which I actually addressed in the OP. It doesn't matter that evolutionists feel more confident about current hypotheses. We can see in the total absence of those hypotheses, Evolution would still be able to forge different narratives. That has been clearly demonstrated, and the date of the research is irrelevant.


An idea with the grand, sweeping impact of UCA leaves literally millions of areas were the evidence has to come up in a very specific way, otherwise it is powerful evidence against UCA. And literally millions of tests have been done in those areas.

For instance - lets look at just blood protein biochemistry. Blood proteins are not required by design considerations (say, upright walking), and are highly changeable due to protein shape. UCA predicts that for every single new species found, their blood proteins will be in accordance to the grand nested hierarchy of the Family Tree of common descent. And that's not just for lines of descent, or to show a family tree - but it showes the SAME family tree shown below. If not for common descent, this would be extremely unlikely (practically impossible). Yet, of the thousands of new species found, their blood proteins fit just as expected.

OK, now you can do the same thing with hormone chemistry, immune tags, and so on.


You premised this with the claim that this should not be the case with "design considerations". Your argument is based on philosophy and metaphysics, not science. But let's take your argument for blood protein congruence. Fine. But then we have the glaring issue of highly contrasting developmental pathways underlying embryology and the organization of homologous structures. (known as "The Problem of Homology") A problem found throughout the animal kingdom. You'd be hard pressed to say UCA predicts this, but just the same, it is accommodated into the theory as something evolution did. Evolution theory takes both A and -A as 'evidence'.

Molecular and morphological incongruent character traits, in general, are arbitrarily explained away as "convergence".


OK, so much for biochemistry. You can do the same thing with the fossil record ("no bats will be found in archean strata"), etc, again giving thousands of easily falsifiable predictions for all of the millions of places where excavations are happening.


Okay, I tried to make this clear in the OP. Evolution theory was built around the emerging pattern from the fossil record. It did not predict it. Like I previously mentioned, there is nothing in Evolution theory that says mammals must wait to evolve in the upper Mesozoic. If a pattern of mammals had been discovered in much lower rock layers, then the theory would have been constructed to accommodate this data, perhaps using the aforementioned Amphibia-Mammalian hypothesis.

We know today that truly sudden appearances of complex body plans (bats, icthoysaurs, pterosaurs, etc.) are not problems for evolution theory and are simply treated as enigmas to be solved in the future.

I will concede that there are certain things Evolution theory would have had a much harder time explaining then others, but for the most part the developing theory was extremely flexible to be able to conform to the fossil pattern that had already been discovered by paleontologists.

By the way, Creationists don't expect mammals showing up the lowest rock layers either, since these layers would be characteristic of the first orders of burial from the global flood, (i.e. benthic organisms on the seafloor.) But evolutionists refuse to consider that there can be other explanations for fossil sequences.


The same for Genetics. The same for physiology. The same for pathology. and so on. The point is that UCA makes literally hundreds of millions of eminently testable predictions, thousands of which are tested every year, over and over again showing the same family tree.


And yet, all of them keep coming back in support not just UCA, but UCA with the same family tree. That's month after month, year after year in thousands of studies and papers by millions of scientists, right now, next week, next month, next year, on and on.

That's not really true at all.

This is known as Elephant Hurling.

Elephant hurling is a debate tactic in which a debater will refer to a large body of evidence which supposedly supports the debater's arguments, but without demonstrating that all the evidence does indeed support the argument.
 
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Split Rock

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The Fossil Record in general, is something evolution theory has molded itself around in reaction to the paleontological developments of the 18th and 19th centuries. Evolution didn't predict the fossil record, it accommodated it. There has been much tough talk from evolutionists claiming a major strength of their theory in that we generally do not find the major mammal groupings anywhere below the upper Mesozoic and Cenozoic rocks. But Evolution theory doesn't predict this... It doesn't predict mammals will evolve ever, nor (as has been demonstrated), the animal group mammals descended from, much less the specific geologic timing...

If, in the earlier centuries, an alternative fossil pattern had emerged of mammalian groups appearing in the lower Mesozoic, or even the Paleozoic, Evolution theory could simply have molded itself around these discoveries, and today one of the major tenets of the theory might proclaim "The Great Mammalian Radiation Event of the Permian" or something of the like.



(Nothing about the theory explains why we shouldn't find this... that's just not what we found and evolution theory molds itself around the fossil record and then pretends that it explains it.)



If such hypothetical fossil features appeared more enigmatic in comparison to today's conventional models, it would simply be treated as an 'evolutionary mystery', much like the Cambrian Explosion is today. Likewise, critics would be scolded for using "God of the Gaps" arguments for pointing out the enigma of mammals appearing in the Permian, etc.


Conclusion: There is no 'test' or prediction of evolution theory being fulfilled when we are presented the most recent transitional evolution stories. It merely reflects its nature of accommodation, as the amorphous fog-like evolution theory adapts itself to the shifting landscapes of data.

The predictive capability of the theory of evolution is not so much in predicting what will occur, whether or not mammals would evolve, etc. It is in predicting what we find today. You mentioned mammal evolution. Mammal-like reptiles are found in the Permian. The theory does not necessarily specify it must be The Permian, though it does specify it must be before mammals radiated. It also predicts what we will not find. For example, the mammal-amphibian intermediate you alluded to earlier. With our present understanding of the history of evolution on earth, we predict that were are no such intermediates, and fossils of such intermediates will never be found. Nor will we find feathered whales, nor an insect with eight legs.

Another example of the predictive power of the theory of evolution, is that genetic similarities must match the nested hierarchy developed by genetic descent. This has been born out many times and continues to be tested. Everytime another species has their genome sequenced, we are testing the predictions of the theory of evolution.

The theory can also help us predict what will lead to extinctions in the near future, and how fast populations can adapt to changing environments. This is why we are concerned about the effects of climate change on species diversity.
 
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Old Ned

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(Nothing about the theory explains why we shouldn't find this... that's just not what we found and evolution theory molds itself around the fossil record and then pretends that it explains it.)

To me, this proves you do not understand Evolution, it does not mould itself around the Fossil record, the Fossil record is the least compelling evidence for Evolution.

You might want to actually learn what Evolution states before trying to debunk it.
 
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lesliedellow

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Do you really think anybody is going to plough through all of that, just so that they can hear, yet again, that every scientist in the world is involved in a conspiracy against Christianity?

I don't think so, somehow.

Creationists don't even seem able to get it into their thick heads that a lot of those wicked scientists are Christians themselves.
 
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