Evolutionists help please!

[Piedpiper123]

Do you believe that semiconductor physics works and produces devices for the storage and processing of information?

Do you believe that relativity and dynamics allow us to model the physical world and devices utlising these theories allow GPS positioning to work?

Do you believe that organic chemistry and the concepts of nucleophillic substitution allow us to manufacture plastics and detergents?

If so - why is it as stretch to believe biological evolution describes how the observed diversity of organisms on this planet came to be?

I believe the first two but don't understand the third.

How does God fit in with evolution? Did he start the process i.e. a form of creation? Did the process start without God's involvement? If so was God surprised?

 

[KerrMetric]

I believe the first two but don't understand the third.

Now ask yourself why cherry pick some and ignore others?

Also what was confusing about #3? Do you believe organic chemistry theory works and produces products via that understanding?

How does God fit in with evolution?

How does he fit in modern organic chemistry or relativity theory? How does he not fit in evolution?

Why such an objection to one facet of scientific thought and yet no problems with others?

 

[Piedpiper123]

Now ask yourself why cherry pick some and ignore others?

Also what was confusing about #3? Do you believe organic chemistry theory works and produces products via that understanding?

How does he fit in modern organic chemistry or relativity theory? How does he not fit in evolution?

Why such an objection to one facet of scientific thought and yet no problems with others?

Cherry pick? Why the agression?

#3 I did not understand what you were saying about plastics.

What objection? My questions are genuine! I made no 'objections'.

I give up. People here do not want to help someone who really wants to understand. What a joke! Bye bye

 

[KerrMetric]

Cherry pick? Why the agression?

What agression? You seem to have some issues with almost all posters if they phrase a question back at you.

Again - what aggression?

What objection? My questions are genuine! I made no 'objections'.

You seem to have made it clear that you need some "reason" to "believe" in evolution. I was trying to ascertain your acceptance or not of other scientific endeavours so as to see where you were coming from so to speak.

I give up. People here do not want to help someone who really wants to understand. What a joke! Bye bye

Methinks you are playing the martyr card a tad quickly. It seems the "giving up" is more an excuse and you seem to have little true calling to understanding.

 

[The Lady Kate]

How does God fit in with evolution?

Theistic evolutionists' opinions vary, but pretty much all believe that God created the first life... how we don't know, and might never know, although we'll continue to study and speculate on that... God did make us inquisitive, after all.

Did he start the process i.e. a form of creation?

Not sure on the details, but TEs will generally say yes.

Did the process start without God's involvement? If so was God surprised?

Start without His involvement? No. Does it continue without His involvement? That's up for debate... whether God is actively involved in every single stage of evolution, or whether he allows the process to roll on on its own, is a matter of discussion.

Of course, this is true of anything that happens in nature... look at the weather. Is it God that makes the rain fall, or did God just design the world so that every so often, moisture would build up in the sky and fall on us?

Is every individual raindrop an active part of God's plan?

 

[Deamiter]

One does not generally just believe in a scientific theory. People are perfectly welcome to reject evolution just as they can reject gravity or germ theory. All it is is an explanation of the data we have. Originally, you did not ask to be convinced of evolution, so I did not approach the thread trying to convince you -- I just answered the questions you posted that demonstrated some basic misconceptions.

One thing that might help in posting on message boards like these is to always assume that a message is NOT aggressive or condescending. The vast majority of posts in this thread that you have taken offense to have been polite and not at all inflammatory. It is not your fault, you just have to acknowledge that people posting here are from all around the world and will have different writing styles and idioms (beat me to the punch really is innocently saying that he just got there first).

If you can not or do not want to assume the best about posts, it is totally possible that debate forums just are not for you. That is no problem, some people just do not transfer from spoken communication to written communication very easily.

Sorry for the lack of contractions -- for whatever reason my apostrophe is not working, so this post in particular will sound even odder to you than it might since I had to expand all my contractions.

 

[busterdog]

"
It is the same with evolution. You are essentially asking where God is in evolution.
Some will tell you that evolution is random - and it is really the sum result of a whole lot of events that are by themselves random, even though the whole has a meaningful direction.
Some will tell you that evolution is not random - it is directed by natural selection and by the adaptation of species to their environment.

But whether you accept one or the other, the fact is that God is still present. Let me be a bit philosophical for a moment - suppose that per imposibile, God ceased to exist tomorrow (whatever that means). Would the universe still exist? The Christian answer has been no - the universe depends squarely on God for its creation and every moment of its existence. You cannot figure out how God works in it precisely because you can never exclude God from it. God is everywhere and sustains everything through the power of His Word, by which it was created and for which it exists to glorify. And if evolution is a part of this creation, whether it is caused by random chance or directed by the environment within creation, it still exists at the mercy of God and to the glorification of God.

A much better accounting for chance.

 

[busterdog]

If you can not or do not want to assume the best about posts, it is totally possible that debate forums just are not for you. That is no problem, some people just do not transfer from spoken communication to written communication very easily.

Yes. Better to assume the best as a working hypothesis in reading a post.

 

[shernren]

How does God fit in with evolution? Did he start the process i.e. a form of creation? Did the process start without God's involvement? If so was God surprised?

That was what I was trying to say here. If I were to ask you "How does God fit in with the Allies winning WWII and the Nazis losing?", you wouldn't be able to give me a firm response either. After all, victory didn't come with legions of angels arriving on the battlefield and blasting the Panzers away. Victory came with lots of little random occurrences that helped the Allies, coupled with lots of good Allied strategies that were better than the Axis replies.

That's just how the world works. You can never cut God's hand off from the universe - but by extension you can never really look at a natural event and say "Ok, God did this and that, and science did this and that". The idea itself is illogical. God sustains and holds all things together by His Word - and in doing so God sustained every single random occurrence that happened in evolution and every natural selection trend that happened in evolution to get us to where we are today.

God's relationship to history is far more complex than you think. Remember that He sees all of space and time at once. And remember that He never wanted to make the universe an "extension" of Himself - He wanted to make the universe truly other, that He might have even more "others" to love as the Trinity loved each other. As such He has a stake in letting the universe do its own thing - to be as "other" as it can possibly be.

But to sum it up: There's no good reason why God was not involved in evolution.

 

[Phil4987]

Considering that science has exposed indirect evidence for the Big Bang, and most scientists accept the theory of evolution as a sound explanation as to how we got here, the notion that God created the Big Bang and evolution is more probable than the notion that God created everything as stated in Genesis. Genesis 1, afterall, appears to be completely allegory in nature.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Considering that science has exposed indirect evidence for the Big Bang, and most scientists accept the theory of evolution as a sound explanation as to how we got here, the notion that God created the Big Bang and evolution is more probable than the notion that God created everything as stated in Genesis. Genesis 1, afterall, appears to be completely allegory in nature.

But you see... what all true Christians already know, is that God purposefully and deliberately turned the laws of nature upside-down in order to create the world exactly as it is described in Genesis 1. So, what may look like allegory to the unsaved eye is actually a factual, word for word description. To suggest otherwise is to render the entire Bible meaningless...

And anyway, all scientists are Atheists trying to disprove the Bible, Darwin recanted on his deathbed, Evolution created communism, which is a bad thing, and therefore must be false, and...umm... Satan planted all those fossils.

P.S....

 

[Deamiter]

But you see... what all true Christians already know, is that God purposefully and deliberately turned the laws of nature upside-down in order to create the world exactly as it is described in Genesis 1. So, what may look like allegory to the unsaved eye is actually a factual, word for word description. To suggest otherwise is to render the entire Bible meaningless...

And anyway, all scientists are Atheists trying to disprove the Bible, Darwin recanted on his deathbed, Evolution created communism, which is a bad thing, and therefore must be false, and...umm... Satan planted all those fossils.

P.S....

You do know sarcasm doesn't translate well into text, and not everybody would catch the winky smiley as a sarcasm mark (I usually don't)...

It seems the OP really is gone, but this post would probably have really confused somebody so new to internet conversations.

 

[The Lady Kate]

You do know sarcasm doesn't translate well into text, and not everybody would catch the winky smiley as a sarcasm mark (I usually don't)...

It seems the OP really is gone, but this post would probably have really confused somebody so new to internet conversations.

If the OP hadn't figured it out, someone would've pointed it out... sarcasm doesn't translate well, but there's usually so much of it...

 

[KTatis]

But you see... what all true Christians already know, is that God purposefully and deliberately turned the laws of nature upside-down in order to create the world exactly as it is described in Genesis 1. So, what may look like allegory to the unsaved eye is actually a factual, word for word description. To suggest otherwise is to render the entire Bible meaningless...

And anyway, all scientists are Atheists trying to disprove the Bible, Darwin recanted on his deathbed, Evolution created communism, which is a bad thing, and therefore must be false, and...umm... Satan planted all those fossils.

P.S....

What is a true christian? But anyway Why would God have to turn the laws of Naure upside-down in order to do what he has to do? Dosen't make sense to me. All powerful but needs to change the laws to be in command? Hmmm... Makes you wonder.

Saying all scientist are atheist is a BAD thing. And also stereotype!! Do you really have to put lables on people to defend your religion? And if you want someone to disprove the Bible talk to me. But even if you do you really wouldn't listen anyway.

P.S. I guess that you can say Communism died decades ago so it's a good thing... thanks to evolution.

 

[gluadys]

What is a true christian? But anyway Why would God have to turn the laws of Naure upside-down in order to do what he has to do? Dosen't make sense to me. All powerful but needs to change the laws to be in command? Hmmm... Makes you wonder.

Saying all scientist are atheist is a BAD thing. And also stereotype!! Do you really have to put lables on people to defend your religion? And if you want someone to disprove the Bible talk to me. But even if you do you really wouldn't listen anyway.

P.S. I guess that you can say Communism died decades ago so it's a good thing... thanks to evolution.

Don't worry about Lady Kate. She was being sarcastic and didn't put in the sarcasm tags.

As for your comments, I agree. Especially that God does not have to turn the laws of nature upside-down to accomplish His purpose. He made them to accomplish his purpose.

 

[Phil4987]

But you see... what all true Christians already know, is that God purposefully and deliberately turned the laws of nature upside-down in order to create the world exactly as it is described in Genesis 1. So, what may look like allegory to the unsaved eye is actually a factual, word for word description. To suggest otherwise is to render the entire Bible meaningless...

And anyway, all scientists are Atheists trying to disprove the Bible, Darwin recanted on his deathbed, Evolution created communism, which is a bad thing, and therefore must be false, and...umm... Satan planted all those fossils.

P.S....

oh so hilarious!
That gave me a good chuckle!
I was totally suspcious when you bolded the "true," I was like what is she onto? I didn't get it completely ntil I saw the winky face! Cause you know there's so many wack-jobs like that.

 

[Phil4987]

What is a true christian? But anyway Why would God have to turn the laws of Naure upside-down in order to do what he has to do? Dosen't make sense to me. All powerful but needs to change the laws to be in command? Hmmm... Makes you wonder.

Saying all scientist are atheist is a BAD thing. And also stereotype!! Do you really have to put lables on people to defend your religion? And if you want someone to disprove the Bible talk to me. But even if you do you really wouldn't listen anyway.

P.S. I guess that you can say Communism died decades ago so it's a good thing... thanks to evolution.

What do you mean by saying, "And if you want someone to disprove the Bible talk to me..."? I know the Bible is not self-validating, but you can't prove it to be false, can you? If you could disprove the Resurrection, now, that would be somethin.'

 

[KTatis]

What do you mean by saying, "And if you want someone to disprove the Bible talk to me..."? I know the Bible is not self-validating, but you can't prove it to be false, can you? If you could disprove the Resurrection, now, that would be somethin.'

Well I do believe in the resurrection.

 

[Phil4987]

Why?

And again, what do you mean by this:
"And if you want someone to disprove the Bible talk to me."
?

 

[KTatis]

Why?

And again, what do you mean by this:
"And if you want someone to disprove the Bible talk to me."
?

I believe in Jesus existed. I believe that there may be a God or Gods. I just don't take everything out of proportion and like so other many people do.

And what I mean by that was if you want me to PROVE to you, provide evidence resources ect. that the Bible contradicts itself and that it is no diffrent than any other religion. I can do that.