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Evolutionists help please!

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LewisWildermuth

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Mutations happen, they are a given, something either physically or chemically changed the DNA. No chance is involved there.

Now the mutation will have one of three effects on the organism depending what it affected.
1. It will cause harm.
2. No noticeable effect.
3. It will help survival/reproduction.

If it harms, the organism will not reproduce as well as those without said mutation.

If it has no real effect, the organism goes on reproducing at the same rate as the ones without said mutation.

If the mutation helps, the organism will reproduce more than the ones without the mutation.

That is natural selection, there is no chance there.

So since there is no chance in either of the parts that make up evolution, there is no chance involved in evolution.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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And the origin of life. A random chance bolt of lightning etc?
The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life, abiogenesis does.

Even in abiogenesis, there is no chance. Abiogenesis is chemistry, chemistry is not chance. If I mix chemical A with chemical B I will get reaction C. No chance involved here either.

You are seeming to say that God somehow would not be able to know what would happen when He started the universe. Is this what you believe? That God is confused by physics and chemistry?
 
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LewisWildermuth

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Something mutates but a hungry lion wanders by and eats it, by chance? Seems very difficult to seperate natural selection and chance.
If it got eaten, then whatever mutation that it had was not all that helpful was it?

Besides, what chance is involved with getting eaten by anything? Did this lion just randomly poof into the universe or something?

I am not sure what you are meaning when you say chance.
 
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Piedpiper123

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You are seeming to say that God...

I'm not 'saying' anything! All I did was to ask if evolutionists could help me understand what they believe. So far I can only say that evolutionists here tend to be hostile, defensive and not very helpful. I hope things improve.
 
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Piedpiper123

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Haha, Lewis is beating me to the punch here.

Beat me to the PUNCH!!!! Is that really your attitude here, punching, fighting? Yikes! I ask for help and end up being attacked.


If some sensible evolutionists would like to help me understand their beliefs I would be very pleased to listen.
 
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Mallon

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Beat me to the PUNCH!!!! Is that really your attitude here, punching, fighting? Yikes! I ask for help and end up being attacked.
It's a saying. Please don't be so sensitive.
If some sensible evolutionists would like to help me understand their beliefs I would be very pleased to listen.
What would you like to know that hasn't already been explained to you?
 
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shernren

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"Beat me to the punch" is merely a common image used to describe one person achieving something first. I think you could cool down a little, someone who's already saying "Well that says a lot!" on his/her second reply to the thread could use a little patience. :)

Anyways.

Think of it this way. What do we ascribe to God? Take, for example, World War II. If you think about it you will realize that you should be thankful to God that your freedom was preserved in World War II. And yet, for all your thankfulness to God, I could equally argue that the progress of World War II was quite random. After all, who lives and who dies in a battle is really a matter of a stray bullet going a bit too far up or down or fast. As I recall, Hitler served in WWI - if he had been killed on the field, a random occurrence, WWII wouldn't have happened at all. It's chance that Germany didn't have a scientific team fast enough to construct an atom bomb quickly enough, or that the Japanese lost their Pacific supremacy when the US stepped in.

"Not so fast!" LewisWildermuth will protest. "The passage of WWII wasn't random! It was guided by human forces!" And he's right. The Allies won WWII also because their strategists and commanders were simply better. They had better plans and better coordination while Germany had to struggle in a partnership with Italy and Japan who weren't as cooperative. Germany made the mistake of invading Russia in the winter, while it was not just luck but US supremacy that helped them defeat Japan in the Pacific theater - of course, US technology built the nuclear bomb that finished everything.

So by my account, your freedom was defended by chance.
By Lewis' account, your freedom was defended through human action.

Does that mean that you shouldn't thank God that your freedom was defended? Of course not! You would thank God for working both through chance, and through human action, even though there were no miracles involved.

It is the same with evolution. You are essentially asking where God is in evolution.
Some will tell you that evolution is random - and it is really the sum result of a whole lot of events that are by themselves random, even though the whole has a meaningful direction.
Some will tell you that evolution is not random - it is directed by natural selection and by the adaptation of species to their environment.

But whether you accept one or the other, the fact is that God is still present. Let me be a bit philosophical for a moment - suppose that per imposibile, God ceased to exist tomorrow (whatever that means). Would the universe still exist? The Christian answer has been no - the universe depends squarely on God for its creation and every moment of its existence. You cannot figure out how God works in it precisely because you can never exclude God from it. God is everywhere and sustains everything through the power of His Word, by which it was created and for which it exists to glorify. And if evolution is a part of this creation, whether it is caused by random chance or directed by the environment within creation, it still exists at the mercy of God and to the glorification of God.
 
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Deamiter

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To be fair there IS a factor of chance in evolution -- since it deals with populations and not individuals, yes it IS possible that an individual with a beneficial mutation (that increases the possibility of reproduction) will die before it spreads the genes.

However, this is FAR from random. Once a mutation gets spread even in a portion of the population, those with the gene will have a better or worse chance of reproducing than the rest. Over time and in a significant population, the cumulative affect of all these probabilities is FAR from random.

The problem you're running into is that you're thinking about evolution on an individual basis when it only acts on populations. Of course there's a chance that any organism will die (even the one with the mutations most likely to help reproduction) but it still has a better chance of reproducing than those with mutations less likely to help survival or reproduction.

An individual getting hit by lightning is more like random chance. That men tend to die before women is a probability, but it's far from random.
 
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Piedpiper123

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To be fair there IS a factor of chance in evolution -- since it deals with populations and not individuals, yes it IS possible that an individual with a beneficial mutation (that increases the possibility of reproduction) will die before it spreads the genes.

However, this is FAR from random. Once a mutation gets spread even in a portion of the population, those with the gene will have a better or worse chance of reproducing than the rest. Over time and in a significant population, the cumulative affect of all these probabilities is FAR from random.

The problem you're running into is that you're thinking about evolution on an individual basis when it only acts on populations. Of course there's a chance that any organism will die (even the one with the mutations most likely to help reproduction) but it still has a better chance of reproducing than those with mutations less likely to help survival or reproduction.

An individual getting hit by lightning is more like random chance. That men tend to die before women is a probability, but it's far from random.

Thank you for your polite reply but I still don't see any reason why I should believe in evolution.
 
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Piedpiper123

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"Beat me to the punch" is merely a common image used to describe one person achieving something first. I think you could cool down a little, someone who's already saying "Well that says a lot!" on his/her second reply to the thread could use a little patience. :)

It was in response to reply that was ultrashort and meant nothing without explanation. My reply of "Well that says a lot. Please explain," was not in the least bit heated.

"Beat me to the punch" I have never heard or read it used in the way that you claim but you seem to have calmed down yourself now so please give me reasons for believing in evolution.

I need to read and digest your post but at first reading I don't see any reasons in it for believing in evolution. I DO want to understand the whats and whys of evolution.

Thanks :wave:
 
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Mallon

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please give me reasons for believing in evolution.
If your heart is set on disbelieving evolution, as your posts have so obviously demonstrated, then why should anyone here waste their time trying to convince you otherwise?
If you are truly keen about learning about evolution, then I would either direct you to this site (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/) or to the countless number of textbooks out there written on the subject. In the meantime, I don't think any evolutionary creationists here have a priority of trying to "convert" anyone to believing evolutionary theory. Understanding it is another matter, though...
 
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KerrMetric

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Thank you for your polite reply but I still don't see any reason why I should believe in evolution.


Do you believe that semiconductor physics works and produces devices for the storage and processing of information?

Do you believe that relativity and dynamics allow us to model the physical world and devices utlising these theories allow GPS positioning to work?

Do you believe that organic chemistry and the concepts of nucleophillic substitution allow us to manufacture plastics and detergents?

If so - why is it as stretch to believe biological evolution describes how the observed diversity of organisms on this planet came to be?
 
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Piedpiper123

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If your heart is set on disbelieving evolution, as your posts have so obviously demonstrated, then why should anyone here waste their time trying to convince you otherwise?

My heart set on disbelieving evolution! Which of my posts demonstrate that my heart is set on disbelieving evolution? Is wrong for me to ask questions? You think people here should not waste their time trying to convince me!

I came here with an open mind wanting to learn. This is hilarious to be told these things. What a forum!
 
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