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Evolution

Crandaddy

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No, I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive, and I don’t particularly agree with your wording. I don’t think we “hold such beliefs” as much as we “recognize this as true,” and we use that logic as a tool. I don’t hold a belief in the law of identity, I recognize that the law of identity is true. Any brain that did not recognize that would not be very well adapted to its environment, thus would probably not survive and reproduce.

But my point here is that evolution doesn't 'care' whether or not your beliefs are true. All it 'cares' about is that your ancestors' behaviors were conducive to survival and reproduction. From an evolutionary perspective, all that matters is the usefulness of beliefs--i.e. that they get the organisms that hold them to behave so as to survive and propagate their genes.

As for such epistemically foundational beliefs as the law of identity, it is certainly true that we can't begin to imagine what a 'mind' would be like that did not hold them, but all this serves to show is that our minds are hardwired to think that way. It does not show that we ought to believe them because they're true. In order for it to be the case that a belief ought to be held because it is true, it must be the case that our minds are for the production of true beliefs, in that forming true beliefs is their proper function. If naturalistic evolution is responsible for forming our minds, then our minds cannot be for the production of true beliefs, but rather merely for accomplishing behaviors that are conducive to our survival and reproduction. That our beliefs might also just happen to be true would be nothing more than a fortuitous coincidence.

Had to reread this several times – tell me if I’m completely missing it: Are you saying that we do not use our senses to perceive and understand the world around us, the center of those senses being a functioning brain?
No, we do form our true beliefs by perceiving the world around us with our senses, and a functioning brain is necessary in order to do this.

Honestly, I don’t know what you mean by a “set of prior beliefs.” 2 objects plus 2 objects equaling 4 objects isn’t a prior belief from which we made an inference of truth. It is a truth of the world around us. Like I said earlier, it was true before we, or any other minds were around to perceive it. It seems that you’re smuggling in a “belief holder” where none needs be – but again, I could have completely missed what you’re saying.
By “set of prior beliefs” I'm referring to premises from which a conclusion is drawn. But leave that aside. The salient point is that in order for us to 'see' that propositions (as e.g. 2+2=4) are true, it is necessary that truth enter the causal picture. You know that e.g. 2+2=4 is true because you can just 'see' that it's true, but this requires two things:

(1) that the proposition that 2+2=4 actually be true, and

(2) that its being true be what causes you to form the belief that 2+2=4 is true.

The point to see here is that in order for minds to be truly rational--in order for them to properly form and think according to true beliefs--it is necessary that propositions cause beliefs to form by virtue of their being true, and not by virtue any other properties they might have (e.g. their exhibiting certain non-alethic patterns, or their causing certain feelings). But I submit that this requires that they be entertained by a mind whose proper function is to form true beliefs, and that this proper function be assumed as axiomatic in order for rational thought to even get off the ground. Thus, it is because we assume as axiomatic that our minds ought to form the belief that 2+2=4 is true that we might say that we just 'see,' or 'recognize,' that it's true. And by the same token, we would say of some mind that did not form the belief that 2+2=4 is true by virtue of 'seeing' its truth that that mind is not functioning properly.

We hold beliefs to a certain degree of certainty. Even things that are axiomatic – that is things whose negations are impossible – we only hold to a certain degree. But depending on the degree of certainty of knowledge we have, we form beliefs, as belief is a subset of knowledge. But if I’m mistaken there’s no need to continue with my response.
Even beliefs, such as the law of identity and the law of non-contradiction, that form our epistemic bedrock and whose negation is incoherent are still, technically, beliefs. Whether or not we can properly be said to know them depends on whether or not they're actually true, as the truth of a belief is pretty much universally accepted as a necessary condition for that belief's counting as knowledge. But there are certain beliefs that we just have to accept on a sort of faith if we're to have any hope of knowing anything at all, and one of these beliefs, I believe, is that the proper function of our minds is to give us true (or at least mostly true) beliefs. I don't think it's possible to go about justifying this belief, as any attempt to justify it would have to assume the very thing that it would be trying to demonstrate, viz. the reliability of our rational faculties for producing true beliefs. Nor do I think that naturalistic evolution can select for minds whose proper functionality is to form true beliefs, for (as I've said previously) evolution only 'cares' about utility toward an organism's survival and reproduction, and it would select for true beliefs only if such beliefs were useful to accomplish behaviors requisite thereto.
 
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LoveNeverDies

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This is just something I'm curious about, and I'd like to know the range of answers to this.

How many of you religious people accept evolution? If not, why not? If so, why, to what extent, and how does it fit into your religion?

This is always a sly trick question. There is micro evolution, which is a fact, then there is macro evolution, which is a fairy tale. When most people think of evolution they imagine species evolving into another species over millions of years. Most of us have seen those imaginary pictures of apes evolving into humans, and this is taught as macro evolution. To say that micro and macro are both the same is sheer deception. One is true, the other is not.
 
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HitchSlap

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This is always a sly trick question. There is micro evolution, which is a fact, then there is macro evolution, which is a fairy tale. When most people think of evolution they imagine species evolving into another species over millions of years. Most of us have seen those imaginary pictures of apes evolving into humans, and this is taught as macro evolution. To say that micro and macro are both the same is sheer deception. One is true, the other is not.

There is no distinction between micro/macro evolution in this context. There is only evolution. Speciation has been observed hundreds of times, and is well understood. The fossil record is replete with "transitional" fossils and with molecular biology, nested hierarchies are well mapped and documented.

There really is no debate regarding the ToE at this point in time. It's well understood and is only opposed by the strictest of fundies for purely religious reasons.
 
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LoveNeverDies

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There is no distinction between micro/macro evolution in this context. There is only evolution. Speciation has been observed hundreds of times, and is well understood. The fossil record is replete with "transitional" fossils and with molecular biology, nested hierarchies are well mapped and documented.

There really is no debate regarding the ToE at this point in time. It's well understood and is only opposed by the strictest of fundies for purely religious reasons.

There is indeed a big distinction. Macro evolution has never been proven or observed. You can't observe something that takes "millions of years." That's called blind faith. The fossil record has actually disproven macro evolution. Time and time again evolutionists have held their heads in shame after their "transitional" fossils were exposed as frauds. I oppose macro evolution simply because it is a scientific fairy tale based on lies and deception.
 
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HitchSlap

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There is indeed a big distinction. Macro evolution has never been proven or observed. You can't observe something that takes "millions of years." That's called blind faith. The fossil record has actually disproven macro evolution. Time and time again evolutionists have held their heads in shame after their "transitional" fossils were exposed as frauds. I oppose macro evolution simply because it is a scientific fairy tale based on lies and deception.

Are you familiar with forensic science and molecular biology? Along with fossils, this is how scientists best determine how speciation occurs. In fact, evidence from all fields of science (paleo-archaeo-anthro-bio-physics-cosmo-geo-hydro-atomic-socio-neuro-etc.) entirely supports ToE. There really is no serious discussion among scientists on the matter.

As for disproving macro evolution, as I've said, in this context, there is no such distinction. This is a strawman used by cdesign proponentsists to spread disinformation (think Kirk Cameron and crocoducks).

As for frauds and their exposures, this is a red herring. Most frauds were perpetuated by non-scientists for personal gain and were ultimately exposed by real scientists. This really is a nonissue, and not even the professional creationists use this canard any more.
 
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LoveNeverDies

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Are you familiar with forensic science and molecular biology? Along with fossils, this is how scientists best determine how speciation occurs. In fact, evidence from all fields of science (paleo-archaeo-anthro-bio-physics-cosmo-geo-hydro-atomic-socio-neuro-etc.) entirely supports ToE. There really is no serious discussion among scientists on the matter.

As for disproving macro evolution, as I've said, in this context, there is no such distinction. This is a strawman used by cdesign proponentsists to spread disinformation (think Kirk Cameron and crocoducks).

As for frauds and their exposures, this is a red herring. Most frauds were perpetuated by non-scientists for personal gain and were ultimately exposed by real scientists. This really is a nonissue, and not even the professional creationists use this canard any more.

If macro evolution cannot be observed, then it doesn't pass as true science. First of all, you are taking the word of scientists as fact. Scientists who are brave enough to admit that macro evolution is a hoax are often bullied out of their jobs by their work colleagues. You first need to prove that the majority of scientists are being truthful, and then you need to prove that their interpretation of evidence can be proven as being accurate. So far no atheist has been able to do so.
 
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Zoness

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If macro evolution cannot be observed, then it doesn't pass as true science. First of all, you are taking the word of scientists as fact. Scientists who are brave enough to admit that macro evolution is a hoax are often bullied out of their jobs by their work colleagues. You first need to prove that the majority of scientists are being truthful, and then you need to prove that their interpretation of evidence can be proven as being accurate. So far no atheist has been able to do so.

Ahahah oh wow.
 
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HitchSlap

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If macro evolution cannot be observed, then it doesn't pass as true science. First of all, you are taking the word of scientists as fact. Scientists who are brave enough to admit that macro evolution is a hoax are often bullied out of their jobs by their work colleagues. You first need to prove that the majority of scientists are being truthful, and then you need to prove that their interpretation of evidence can be proven as being accurate. So far no atheist has been able to do so.

The fact that scientific evidence is objective and results reproducible is the hallmark of science itself. That's the great thing about science, if you disagree with the results of a journal article, you're free to run the tests as described and see if your results match the conclusion or not! That's the thing about science and evidence, it falls or stands on it's own merits, not the opinions of anyone. As I've said before, nobody rejects ToE for scientific reasons, only for religious ones. Oh, and it's scientists who work in the fields of science, not atheists (some scientists are, some are not).
 
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LoveNeverDies

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The fact that scientific evidence is objective and results reproducible is the hallmark of science itself. That's the great thing about science, if you disagree with the results of a journal article, you're free to run the tests as described and see if your results match the conclusion or not! That's the thing about science and evidence, it falls or stands on it's own merits, not the opinions of anyone. As I've said before, nobody rejects ToE for scientific reasons, only for religious ones. Oh, and it's scientists who work in the fields of science, not atheists (some scientists are, some are not).

Every scientist has his or her own interpretation of the "evidence" just as each Christian has his or her own interpretation of Scripture. According to mainstream dictionaries, science is something that can be observed. You cannot observe something that takes millions of years. Any fool can come up with imaginary pictures to make it fit in with the fossil record. It all comes down to speculation and assumption, but there's nothing concrete.
 
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LoAmmi

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Every scientist has his or her own interpretation of the "evidence" just as each Christian has his or her own interpretation of Scripture. According to mainstream dictionaries, science is something that can be observed. You cannot observe something that takes millions of years. Any fool can come up with imaginary pictures to make it fit in with the fossil record. It all comes down to speculation and assumption, but there's nothing concrete.

So, what you're saying is that if I enter a room to find a man standing over a dead body, with the bloody knife in his hand, in the act of raising it above his head, and he himself is covered with the blood of the victim and he's screaming that the person deserved what they got....

I cannot reasonably conclude anything from this because I could not observe the actual event?
 
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HitchSlap

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Every scientist has his or her own interpretation of the "evidence" just as each Christian has his or her own interpretation of Scripture. According to mainstream dictionaries, science is something that can be observed. You cannot observe something that takes millions of years. Any fool can come up with imaginary pictures to make it fit in with the fossil record. It all comes down to speculation and assumption, but there's nothing concrete.

Not even close.

Yes, religions are divergent, with each guru having their own interpretation of the bible. Science is a bit more rigorous, and is convergent, with all evidence and data collected supporting one, single, theory. Evidence is the very reason we're able to call evolution a theory, at this point in time.

I'm sorry to say, but your comments directly betray your level of understanding of science. I suggest you bone up on real science and avoid creo sites like the plague.
 
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HitchSlap

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So, what you're saying is that if I enter a room to find a man standing over a dead body, with the bloody knife in his hand, in the act of raising it above his head, and he himself is covered with the blood of the victim and he's screaming that the person deserved what they got....

I cannot reasonably conclude anything from this because I could not observe the actual event?

This is exactly what his line of reasoning suggests. Unfortunately for him, he's getting his information from a popular creo site (AiG??) which preaches that unless one can directly observe something, then it's anyone's guess as to what may have happened. ^_^
 
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LoveNeverDies

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Not even close.

Yes, religions are divergent, with each guru having their own interpretation of the bible. Science is a bit more rigorous, and is convergent, with all evidence and data collected supporting one, single, theory. Evidence is the very reason we're able to call evolution a theory, at this point in time.

I'm sorry to say, but your comments directly betray your level of understanding of science. I suggest you bone up on real science and avoid creo sites like the plague.

If atheists or scientists cannot give us concrete evidence, stop calling macro evolution a fact. The more I research the theory of evolution the more I'm convinced it is a big hoax. There is nothing scientific about macro evolution. It's more science fiction :D
 
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ViaCrucis

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There is indeed a big distinction. Macro evolution has never been proven or observed. You can't observe something that takes "millions of years." That's called blind faith. The fossil record has actually disproven macro evolution. Time and time again evolutionists have held their heads in shame after their "transitional" fossils were exposed as frauds. I oppose macro evolution simply because it is a scientific fairy tale based on lies and deception.

All fossils are transitional fossils.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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awitch

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If atheists or scientists cannot give us concrete evidence, stop calling macro evolution a fact. The more I research the theory of evolution the more I'm convinced it is a big hoax. There is nothing scientific about macro evolution. It's more science fiction :D

I wonder if it's worth asking what sources you've studied.
 
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