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Yeah, you're right.
However, the genetic diversity between different mice in the genus Mus is as large as the genetic diversity between humans and chimps. But humans and chimps are put in a different genus. Which was my point. And you could make the point that to be consistent, at least as far as genetic similarity is concerned, you either should divide the genus Mus into more classes, or put humans and chimps in the same genus.
Looking a bit further, Ochrotomys and Peromyscus aren't even in the same family as Mus. Heck, rats are more closely related to Mus than those two mice are. The difference being that those mice are native to the Americas, while Mus is native to Australia, Asia, Europe and Afrika. Similar to the difference between old world and new world monkeys. Perhaps old and new world mice also diverged at the same time that old and new world monkeys did? Do you know?
OK, compare the genetic variations among bacteria with the species diversification of animals are some what like to compare apple with banana.
Now, this is simply another way to see the OP. This thread has been turned around and around and around. However, to me, the question in the OP still stand.
Is that the sound of goal posts retreating?
You've got to be kidding...
Not if you're looking at relatedness. Then it is a useful metric, the only one.OK, compare the genetic variations among bacteria with the species diversification of animals are some what like to compare apple with banana.
Sure, because learning is a sin in your world.Now, this is simply another way to see the OP. This thread has been turned around and around and around. However, to me, the question in the OP still stand.
OK, compare the genetic variations among bacteria with the species diversification of animals are some what like to compare apple with banana.
Now, this is simply another way to see the OP. This thread has been turned around and around and around. However, to me, the question in the OP still stand.
So you are saying we can't compare evolution in bacteria with animals, but even though we can't make meaningful comparisons, your OP still stands that bacteria haven't evolvedIt seems fungus and bacteria do not evolve since their creation. Is it correct? If so, why don't they?
This chart is perfect to illustrate my point. You may say the environment in the past 20 Ma was not stable. I may say it was perfectly stable.
So, basically, the stability of environment (in short term or long term) is NOT QUALIFIED to be used as a factor in evolution.
Umm, sort of yes. That's why we thought it was a bad idea that you did that.OK, compare the genetic variations among bacteria with the species diversification of animals are some what like to compare apple with banana.
What do you mean?Now, this is simply another way to see the OP.
Then I really, really have no idea how to explain things to you.This thread has been turned around and around and around. However, to me, the question in the OP still stand.
Is it? I disagree. Genetic distance can be a very good measure, given that it provides an indication of the number of generations between different organisms. It may not be an ideal indicator, but it gives us a lot more information on the evolutionary distance between different organisms than any other indicator. This is precisely the reason that it is also used as an indicator to draw up cladograms.Umm, sort of yes. That's why we thought it was a bad idea that you did that.
So you are saying we can't compare evolution in bacteria with animals, but even though we can't make meaningful comparisons, your OP still stands that bacteria haven't evolved
But you argued that speciation was evolution. And speciation has been observed in bacteria. I even gave you the papers that show exactly that. So even by your own criteria evolution has happened in bacteria.Yes. Here is the logic:
If we take animal evolution as an illustration (or even the definition) of evolution, then the type of change happened to bacteria is not evolution. And vice versa. (as it has been argued, I do not take "change with time" as the definition of evolution in this thread)
Sure you do.I think that was the meaning of the OP. And I think it is till valid.
Oh, misunderstanding alert. I thought he was referring to comparing bacterial genetic diversity to the visible diversity of animals. Ooops.Is it? I disagree. Genetic distance can be a very good measure, given that it provides an indication of the number of generations between different organisms. It may not be an ideal indicator, but it gives us a lot more information on the evolutionary distance between different organisms than any other indicator. This is precisely the reason that it is also used as an indicator to draw up cladograms.
I'm sorry, the definition of biological evolution is descent with modification, whether you like it or not. If you aren't talking about evolution then DON'T CALL IT EVOLUTION.Yes. Here is the logic:
If we take animal evolution as an illustration (or even the definition) of evolution, then the type of change happened to bacteria is not evolution. And vice versa. (as it has been argued, I do not take "change with time" as the definition of evolution in this thread)
Perhaps, but what's your point? You aren't arguing against scientific reasoning, because you aren't using scientific words. You have built up a strawman of evolution that doesn't even resemble the actual scientific concept.Yes. Here is the logic:
If we take animal evolution as an illustration (or even the definition) of evolution, then the type of change happened to bacteria is not evolution. And vice versa. (as it has been argued, I do not take "change with time" as the definition of evolution in this thread)
I think that was the meaning of the OP. And I think it is till valid.
If you take animals as the definition of what life is, then bacteria (and plants) aren't even alive. It's meaningless.Yes. Here is the logic:
If we take animal evolution as an illustration (or even the definition) of evolution, then the type of change happened to bacteria is not evolution. And vice versa. (as it has been argued, I do not take "change with time" as the definition of evolution in this thread)
I think that was the meaning of the OP. And I think it is till valid.
But you argued that speciation was evolution. And speciation has been observed in bacteria. I even gave you the papers that show exactly that. So even by your own criteria evolution has happened in bacteria.
Yes, you did give a few examples. However, it is not easy for me to evaluate your examples. The only thing I can tell is that your examples do not represent the normal situation. Then, the classification scheme issue came. We found that species, genus, class etc. are NOT the same thing used on bacteria and on animals. So my definition of evolution (speciation) may not apply to bacteria either (progress and learning to me). Obviously, we need to use an entirely "different" criteria (genetic) to evaluate the changes happened to bacteria. While I agree that evolution "can be" defined as change with time, it is not the one underlain the OP. In the evolution/creation debate, the default definition of evolution is the species evolution happened to plants/animals. It seems that we can agree now that this definition does not apply to bacteria.
Now, a vague or an improperly defined term does not eliminate the problem. Bacteria, one of the earliest form of life appeared on the earth, are still dramatically different from megascopic form of lives in their mechanism of evolution. With this understanding or modification, the question in the OP STILL STANDS. All the debates happened so far only served to clarify the question of the OP.
What "normal situation". If it happens in nature, it is normal.Yes, you did give a few examples. However, it is not easy for me to evaluate your examples. The only thing I can tell is that your examples do not represent the normal situation.
No, what I showed was that assignments to a certain clade (genus, family etc) is arbitrary in all organisms. In that way, bacteria do not differ from animals, since even amongst animals these classifications are not used consistently either. The only naturally occurring clade is the species, the rest is arbitrary.Then, the classification scheme issue came. We found that species, genus, class etc. are NOT the same thing used on bacteria and on animals.
Speciation does apply to bacteria. Sex is the exchange of genetic material, speciation the point where this exchange is no longer possible. This exchange of genetic material happens between bacteria and can be impossible if the genetic distance between bacteria is too large, just as in animals. It is not the only criterium for designating a different species (neither in bacteria, nor in animals or plants), but as we have seen in this thread, it is one of the criteria used.So my definition of evolution (speciation) may not apply to bacteria either (progress and learning to me).
To evaluate the changes that happened to animals, we need the exact same criterium. Of course, we can also use morphology to determine what happened with bacteria, another thing that you continuously keep ignoring. Not all bacteria look alike, for from it.Obviously, we need to use an entirely "different" criteria (genetic) to evaluate the changes happened to bacteria.
I couldn't care less. Learn some biology.While I agree that evolution "can be" defined as change with time, it is not the one underlain the OP.
No, the default definition is the one applied in biology, change in allele frequency over time in a population. That is the only rigorous definition of biology, no matter how much you deny it.In the evolution/creation debate, the default definition of evolution is the species evolution happened to plants/animals.
No, we cannot. If you want to apply the same definition of speciation across all animals and plants consistently, the definition you need to use is the stop of the exchange of genetic material between two populations. This happens in bacteria just as it happens in animals, plants and fungi.It seems that we can agree now that this definition does not apply to bacteria.
Animals are also dramatically different from each other. If you don't think it's a problem for animals to be dramatically different, if you want to be consistent there is no problem in bacteria being just as different.Now, a vague or an improperly defined term does not eliminate the problem. Bacteria, one of the earliest form of life appeared on the earth, are still dramatically different from megascopic form of lives in their mechanism of evolution.
The question in the OP was answered in the first few pages. Which part do you deem unanswered?With this understanding or modification, the question in the OP STILL STANDS. All the debates happened so far only served to clarify the question of the OP.
If you take animals as the definition of what life is, then bacteria (and plants) aren't even alive. It's meaningless.
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