Evolution

[elephanticity]

Originally posted by messenjah
I got a few Christians who believe that God created the world through evolution.

Um, got a few QUESTIONS for xians? Well, if God used evolution, then the verses of Genesis become a parable. God made life, initially asexual, which developed intelligence, sex and modesty...not necessarily in that order... So if it isn't a reflection of literal events, then questions like

1) Where did sin come from?

are a teeny bit meaningless. Man can sin, that's the important part of the story. Since it is possible for EVERYONE to get to Heaven, then it is even more possible for camels to get thru a needle's eye. No one seems upset that they can't find a big enoug needle, or small enough camel.

2) When did Satan fall from Heaven?

Another parable.

3) God created the plants on the third day and the sun on the fourth day. Awful hard on those plants to wait for the sun for billions of years.

Kinda thought it was even harder to figure out how the moon was a light source.

4) Evolution teaches us that we are animals. Why is it that High-School Biology teachers teach us that we are animals and then wonder why we act like it?

this is just judgemental posturing. Isn't this on a bumper sticker?

5) Do you truly believe that death was in the original plan of God?

Do you truly believe that an infallible and omniscient God was surprised by the actions of Adam and Eve? He could have put the cherubim in front of the trees LONG before anyone ate of the fruit....

6) When God looked at His Creation on the sixth DAY and said it was good, was Satan controlling the earth and was Adam standing on a bunch of dead things?

Huh? This one i don't even follow? Dead things? Satanic control?

7) On the sixth DAY,That's 'day.' Do you have a shift key that sticks? God gave Adam dominion over the earth. Was Satan ruling then? If so you have a real problem there over who controlled the earth.

No, not if its a fairy tale, i mean parable.

Think about THAT with an open mind.

 

[Zadok]

1) Where did sin come from?

Sin came from god. He created evil, he created death (spiritual), he created Satan, the garden of Eden and everything else. Read your old testament.

2) When did Satan fall from Heaven?

He fell in the beginning. The war in heaven has yet to happen yet, this is old mormonistic theology that crept into fundamental christianity. The war will happen in the middle of the Tribulation. Read the book of REVELATIONS.

3) God created the plants on the third day and the sun on the fourth day. Awful hard on those plants to wait for the sun for billions of years.

Isn't god supposed to be omnipotent? Nothing more than a trivial parlor trick for an all-powerfull god that you worship.

4) Evolution teaches us that we are animals. Why is it that High-School Biology teachers teach us that we are animals and then wonder why we act like it?

Teaches? By all means, you eat and digest food, take bathroom brakes and use 90% of your food cunsumption to generate body warmth. If you think that your NOT an animal, than maybe your a plant?

5) Do you truly believe that death was in the original plan of God?

Sure it was. At least, physical death and not spiritual. How well do you think the food chain would work if death didn't exist? How well do you think the world would function if death didn't exist? Overpopulation anyone? Death is an unavoidable neccessity in nature, surley you don't think we are exempt from natural causes do you?

6) When God looked at His Creation on the sixth DAY and said it was good, was Satan controlling the earth and was Adam standing on a bunch of dead things?

How do you know this is supposed to be literal? And as I said before, god created satan, god is all-knowing, surley he would have forseen the outcome of his "creation", wouldn't he?

7) On the sixth DAY, God gave Adam dominion over the earth. Was Satan ruling then? If so you have a real problem there over who controlled the earth.

Satan began ruling when he manipulated the fall of mankind. Didn't you read the book of Job through and through?

 

[TheBear]

Originally posted by messenjah
Hello,

Welcome to a debate about evolution vs. creation

I am a Creationist, I believe that God created the world in six 24 hour days. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and he was sent to forgive us for our sins. Before I start this debate I want to state something, I do not believe that any side of the issue can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but I do believe that the evidence overwhelmingly points to Creation.

Now for my evidence. First of all, the only way that evolution could work is with a large amount of time. By showing that the earth could not be billions and billions of years old, I can then show that evolution does not really work. For example, if I found a watch 20 feet deep in coal, I would guess that the watch was 1000 years old. Unfortanetely, the watch is was made in 1995 therefore it could only have gotten in there seven years ago. Then again, the batteries are only 5 years old, so it could only have been dropped in there five years ago. This is an example. It only takes one fact to prove that the time wouldn't work.

1) The moon is receding a few inches each year. Billions of years ago the moon would have been so close that the tides would have been much higher, eroding away the continents.

2) Jupiter and Saturn are cooling off rather rapidly. They are losing heat twice as fast as they gain it from the sun. They cannot be billions of years old.

3) The erosion rate of the continents is such that they would erode to sea level in less than 14,000,000 years, destroying all old fossils.

4) The size of the Mississippi River delta, divided by the rate mud is being deposited, gives an age of less than 30,000 years. (The Flood in Noah’s day could have washed out 80% of the mud there in a few hours or days, so 4400 years is a reasonable age for the delta.)

5) The oceans are getting saltier. If they were billions of years old, they would be much saltier than they are now.

6) The current population of earth (5.5 billion souls) could easily be generated from eight people (survivors of the Flood) in less than 4000 years.

Now evolutionists can make up theories on their side, but the weight of the evidence is on my side and evolutionists have to either, a)disprove my facts, or b) find a theory that incorporates both my fact and their theory and use evidence to support it.

Give me your best shot.

Now that all of your points have been dismantled, by not even the best of shots, you switch focus to where sin came from, and other questions not realted to your initial, forcefull and confident post. Does the fact that you are changing subjects mean that you are submitting to the counter-points? Has your confidence in your initial statement been cut down? Let's stick to the points in your initial post. After those issues have been hammered out, then we can move on to additional points. Okay?

Thanks,
John

 

[Zadok]

As Bill Nye would say, SCIENCE RULZ!!!!

 

[messenjah]

1)You said that when people fell into sin isn't important. Well that doesn't make sense because we fell into sin because of Adam's sin. Why would God put us into sin without a reason.

2)You also said that the fall of Satan is a parable. Are you saying that there is no Satan. What is against us than? Is Satan, a good guy? Well that totally goes against scripture.

I really have no idea what your talking about because what you've just shown me is that you don't believe that there is a Satan but you do believe there is a God.

 

[TheBear]

Zadok,

Thanks for picking up where I left off with the link. I had to go to work, but I figured someone would pick up the ball and run with it. Thanks for saving me some time.


John

 

[messenjah]

Now that all of your points have been dismantled, by not even the best of shots, you switch focus to where sin came from, and other questions not realted to your initial, forcefull and confident post. Does the fact that you are changing subjects mean that you are submitting to the counter-points? Has your confidence in your initial statement been cut down? Let's stick to the points in your initial post. After those issues have been hammered out, then we can move on to additional points. Okay?

No, my first post was just a beggining. I am trying to show Christians that evolution goes against the Bible.

 

[TheBear]

Originally posted by messenjah


No, my first post was just a beggining. I am trying to show Christians that evolution goes against the Bible.

The only way to show anything to anyone, is to discuss issues point by point. Not some shotgun style attack, with points flying everywhere.

 

[messenjah]

in your opinion it works. Different ways work for different people.

 

[Zadok]

Sure, I just couldn't resist posting those rebuttles.

Actually, Matson has written some extremely interesting material that I would suggest both creationists AND evolutionists read. Good stuff!!!

Oh and messenjah...

No, my first post was just a beggining. I am trying to show Christians that evolution goes against the Bible.

It only goes against the bible if you make it go against the bible. The fact that many christians are evolutionary supporters are proof that it dosn't neccesarily go against anything. And you have no right to "show" them what you feel is right or wrong. You have no right to "show" them what is literal or non-literal in the bible.

1)You said that when people fell into sin isn't important. Well that doesn't make sense because we fell into sin because of Adam's sin. Why would God put us into sin without a reason.

Sin is a result of the curse that god placed on humanity. Its him punishing us for our "forefathers" mistakes.

2)You also said that the fall of Satan is a parable. Are you saying that there is no Satan. What is against us than? Is Satan, a good guy? Well that totally goes against scripture.

Really? Quote esome biblical verses for us to decide then.

 

[TheBear]

messenjah,

Speaking of points, do you still stand by every point you made in your initial post?


John

 

[Zadok]

And not even a comment on the scientific support I just pasted...

Geez, hows that for spoiled sport?

 

[messenjah]

What about when Jesus was tempted by Satan? Was Jesus being tempted by God? Wasn't Jesus the Son of God?

 

[TheBear]

Originally posted by messenjah
in your opinion it works. Different ways work for different people.

With statements like that, you obviously have not been debating very long. If you have an arsenal of points to present, you either lay them all out at once, or you present them in a logical sequence, after the last point has been examined and debated. No serious debator, throws in random, (non-related to the current point), out of left field points.


John

 

[Zadok]

Sure... but again, I didn't make that post earlier. Its seems as though, if the bible is right, than Satan does exist.

Now pat yourself on the back messenjah, you have successfully stated the obvious.

 

[Zadok]

Now please respond on the material that I just posted and quit changing subjects...

 

[TheBear]

I'll ask again. Do you still stand by each and every point you made in your original post?

 

[TheBear]

Hey, I know what. Let's talk about water baptism.

 

[messenjah]

5. Once again, Dr. Hovind's figures just boggle the mind! Let us
assume, for the sake of argument, that the Moon is receding at 6 inches
per year. If we go back a million years, then the Moon was 6 million
inches closer to the earth. That comes to about 95 miles! Since the
Moon is about 240,000 miles away, that doesn't amount to diddly-squat!
Indeed, since the Moon doesn't orbit in a perfect circle it varies more
than that on its own.
A more accurate estimate, based on the present rate of lunar
recession, puts the Moon within the Roche limit around 1 or 2 billion
years ago. That is the argument most creationists use. (Since Dr.
Hovind's notes match the figures he quoted in his debate with Dr.
Hilpman, I assume that those figures are not a simple oversight.)
As I understand it, the tides act as a brake which slows down the
earth's rotation. The earth's lost energy can't simply disappear, and it
goes into speeding up the Moon. As it speeds up, the Moon moves to a
higher orbit. Thus, the energy of the Earth-Moon system is conserved.
The effectiveness of the tidal brake on the earth's rotation
strongly depends on the configuration of the oceans. Thus, we should
inquire as to whether the current arrangement is an average value or not.

The present rate of tidal dissipation is anomalously high because the
tidal force is close to a resonance in the response function of the
oceans; a more realistic calculation shows that dissipation must have
been much smaller in the past and that 4.5 billion years ago the moon was
well outside the Roche limit, at a distance of at least thirty-eight
earth radii (Hansen 1982; see also Finch 1982).
(Brush, 1983, p.78)

Thus, our moon was probably never closer than 151,000 miles. A
modern astronomy text gives an estimate of 250,000 kilometers (155,000
miles), which agrees very closely with Brush's figure (Chaisson and
McMillan, 1993, p.173). Thus, the "problem" disappears!
It may surprise you to learn that Darwin's son, George Darwin, a
respected scientist in his time, did some serious calculations along this
line. In the nineteenth century that was a reasonable scientific
conjecture. Today, in the light of what we know, it's an exercise in
futility. For more insight into the problem, see Dalrymple (1991, pp.51-
52).

Yes but the idea that the earth is "billions and billions of years old wouldn't work" Only millions.

Also, the Gap Theory states that all the mass in the universe got together into a mass the size of a period. Then it spun around and *bang* it exploded. Now lets take three 4th graders and put them on a merry go round in a park. Then put three high school football players to spin them around. There are four different stages the fourth graders are going ot go through.

1) at 30mph the kids are going to be screaming for the high schoolers to go faster.

2) at 50mph the kids are just going to be trying to hold on.

3) at 70mph the kids are screaming again for the high schoolers to stop.

4) at 100mph the kids have all fallen off.

Now whats interesting to not is that if the merry-go-round spins clockwise than the kids will spin clockwise as well. Now if that is true then why do we have other planets that spin opposite directions than us.

 

[Zadok]

4) at 100mph the kids have all fallen off.

This is an assumption. You don't KNOW that ALL of the kids are going to fall off. Some could still be clinging on.

This is a weird rebuttle. Let me read it again so I know how to debate this.