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Evolution vs. Theology

mark kennedy

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You actually need a dictionary to define a day?

Day (yôm yome, יום ) : From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially). Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 14, 16, 18, 19, 23, 31 (Strong's #H3117)

Day, a 24 hour period as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1. (Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions)​

It means day, it's defined as evening plus morning equals one day.

Have a nice day
Mark
 
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Papias

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mark wrote:


Pretending that definitions can be just made up from hand picked and misinterpreted quotes is certainly closer to "going round and round" than simply using the dictionary. In this case, guess how a rational person finds out what the defintion of "natural selection" is? Yep, by using a "dictionary"!

natural selection


noun the process by which forms of life having traits that better enable them to adapt to specific environmental pressures, as predators, changes in climate, or competition for food or mates, will tend to survive and reproduce in greater numbers than others of their kind, thus ensuring the perpetuation of those favorable traits in succeeding generations.



As before, if you want a definition, use a dictionary. See above, in orange.....

Non sequiter. I pointed out that you were now listing additional different definitions. Your insults about reading are irrelevant.
So then why, on this thread, are you going on about me using ad-hominem attacks? Nonetheless, my statement still stands - I'll apologize for any time I've insulted a person.

Which is exactly what I was saying. Thank you for fleshing this out.



So then you concede the point?

I concede nothing because you never make coherent statements.
sounds like another empty insult.

So "dust" is not material?


Prior to God creating Adam there was no living body which rules out some converted ape.

So the whole creation story rules out life as we know it today, because it doesn't mention cells? The point is that just because the text doesn't detail every step, we both agree there are other details there that are likely due to what the text does say.




I think we've gone over that before mark, and you claim that God doesn't act through natural laws, which as I and others have pointed out, is unscriptural.


So do you agree now that you know of at least one (and with Pope Benedict, two) examples of Theistic Evolution supporters warning against modernism?
No, Theistic Evolution is Modernism, they just change the word for it like you tried to do with Darwinism.

Um, going to the dictionary again, instead of making up things......

modernism — n modern tendencies, characteristics, thoughts, etc, or the support of thesesomething typical of contemporary life or thought See International Style a 20th-century divergence in the arts from previous traditions, esp in architecture ( capital ) RC Church the movement at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries that sought to adapt doctrine to the supposed requirements of modern thought


The fact that the RC church interprets Genesis in ways compatible with theistic evolution is clear in our whole debate, and as I've pointed out before, is widely recognized by those both inside and outside the church. That's why Pope Benedict made it clear in the document given to you (multiple times) that it is Atheistic versions of evolution/UCA that he is rejecting, not UCA itself.

You know, I've found that simply removing the long strings of insults from your posts makes them much easier to understand, and shortens them a lot.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Assyrian

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You keep arguing about Adam and whether God willed Adam to sin. This is not about that. It is about God's will and purpose from before the foundation of the world, foreknowing we would sin, for Christ to die to redeem us. I notice you left out the verse I quoted, but there a plenty of others showing it was God's purpose from before he ever created the world, to redeem us in Christ.

Also I would actually argue that Christ did not have to die at all - that humanity could have gone through Judaism just fine - but God simply foreknew events that would occur. It is, however, a rather deep theological argument.
It always strikes me as odd when Christians think God's Plan A was originally Salvation by Works.

ok

but originally Satan was good. Also, Satan is not a part of God's created cosmos of matter - Satan is a spirit, not a being made of matter. So he exists outside of this realm, in heaven. Satan's fall occurred in heaven, not in this created cosmos.
It is not a question of where you want to locate Satan's fall, but the fact that Satan was originally good and created by God. If we can't claim Satan wasn't part of God good creation because his is now an enemy of God or that God will destroy him, then you cannot claim that death wasn't part of God's good creation, because the devil now has the power of death Heb 2:14.
 
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Assyrian

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Where is day defined as "evening plus morning equals one day"?
 
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Lopez 15721

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I don't need a dictionary to define what a day means. The other poster asked me to Google or Bing the word day and said I wouldn't find any definition that referred to the sun. Obviously he has wrong, and wrong yet again as the very definition from the Bible includes the sun.
 
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mark kennedy

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Obviously Bing and Google dictionaries are not going to have the definition for 'Yom' and you know it. You really don't need a dictionary because it's perfectly comprehensive from the English translation, evening plus morning equals 1 day. The only thing wrong here is the use of a fallacious personal ad hominem which is an argument that never happened.
 
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mark kennedy

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So your going to play the spam game again. You ignore the Darwins in your previous definition from the Oxford Dictionary even though your purple definition specifically mentions Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection. Now your going to include an orange definition so let's see what you have this time.


Yea, that's a pretty standard definition that includes population and environmental changes and other things as factors. Then there's reproductive success, a mainstay of Darwinian Natural Selection and no where in this definition are we seeing the a priori assumption of universal common descent. It's at least an improvement.

As before, if you want a definition, use a dictionary. See above, in orange

I know what it means, what is crucial here is to separate the scientific definition and the a priori assumption you are obsessed with equivocating.

Non sequiter. I pointed out that you were now listing additional different definitions. Your insults about reading are irrelevant.

You never established that B does not follow A which means you have yet another flawed argument that never happened.

So then why, on this thread, are you going on about me using ad-hominem attacks? Nonetheless, my statement still stands - I'll apologize for any time I've insulted a person.

I apologize that I let it get to this point, if I call you on your fallacious arguments early it guts your arguments and your forced to use actual definitions and substantive resources.

Which is exactly what I was saying. Thank you for fleshing this out.

I've always known what you were trying to say, you've been lulled into a false sense of security by relying on Darwinian fallacies.

sounds like another empty insult.

Your struggling with something called resentment but it will pass, it always does.

So "dust" is not material?

Of course it is, Adam's life as created 'bara', not the physical frame which is from the earth. The clear language indicates life created 'bara', not a transition from a pre-existing life form like apes.


True enough, so what?

I think we've gone over that before mark, and you claim that God doesn't act through natural laws, which as I and others have pointed out, is unscriptural.

I never said he doesn't but I'm opposed to the Darwinian version of Christian theism that insists that he must.

So do you agree now that you know of at least one (and with Pope Benedict, two) examples of Theistic Evolution supporters warning against modernism?

Theistic Evolution is Modernism.


Um, yea, we are going to have to expand it again as well:

Modernism: "the critique of our supernatural knowledge according to the false postulates of contemporary philosophy". (Modernism, New Advent. see 'The essential error of Modernism')

Wow, you know what that sounds like?

"All change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition." (Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species)​

Darwinism was a part of, 'the movement at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries that sought to adapt doctrine to the supposed requirements of modern thought'. Theistic Evolution does not differ from Darwinism in any meaningful way. If it did you would be subjected to the same ridicule Creationists and Intelligent Design proponents always have been, at least since the late 19th century. Until the advent of Darwinism there was no conflict of ID and Creationism with natural science and there was no such thing as Theistic Evolution. The only reason Darwinism has survived is because it's equivocated with the genuine article of science and when it can no longer do that it's exposed for the false assumption that it is.


There is no RCC version, endorsement or acknowledgement of UCA. There is an occasional description of the theory of evolution in it's most general terms. Pope Benedict spoke forcefully against Modernism as specifically mentioned hazards and errors that are essential to Theistic Evolution if you read with warnings clearly.

You know, I've found that simply removing the long strings of insults from your posts makes them much easier to understand, and shortens them a lot.

You could save a lot more time if you would stop trying to refute definitions you are going to have no choice but to agree with. Like all Darwinians the sport of correcting errors that are not actually errors might get you a little friendly backslapping from your cohorts but it sends your arguments into a downward spiral.

You bought a lemon, that's why it keeps breaking down on you. Darwinism is riddled with flaws and faults, the most glaring is the naturalistic assumptions that have always been at the heart of Modernism, a categorical rejection of the supernatural, aka miracles. Should you come to an honest conclusion you will end up right back where it all started and find the definition has not changed.

Have a nice day
Mark
 
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Assyrian

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Genesis 1:5, 8, 13, 14, 16, 18, 19, 23, 31 (Strong's #H3117)
Sorry Mark none of those verse defines day as "evening plus morning equals one day". Neither does Strong's dictionary. I have come across that phrase a number of times from Creationists, it seem to be doing the rounds. What I am asking is where it comes from. Where is day defined as "evening plus morning equals one day"?
 
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mark kennedy

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You just love to deny the obvious:

yôm (yome Strong's H3117 יום ) - From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially)​

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions יום:
1. day, time, year
a. day (as opposed to night)
b. day (24 hour period)​
1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2. as a division of time 1b
c. a working day, a day's journey
d. days, lifetime (pl.)
e. time, period (general)
f. year
g. temporal references​
1. today
2. yesterday
3. tomorrow
Origin: from an unused root meaning to be hot​

And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Gen. 1:5)
And the evening and the morning were the second day. (Gen. 1:8)
And the evening and the morning were the third day. (Gen. 1:13)
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. (Gen. 1:19)
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. (Gen. 1:23)
And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Gen. 1:31)
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made (Gen. 2:2)​

Evening plus morning equals one day, seven days equals one week, thus Creation Week.

I'm not chasing your denials in circles this time, accept the clear meaning of the text or your just revealing something about yourself.

Have a nice day
Mark
 
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Assyrian

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None of that gives us the Creationist equation I was asking you about:
"evening plus morning equals one day".
 
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Lopez 15721

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Actually I found the definition of yom on Google. Though I already knew what it was. Again, I was simply answering a post, and it wasn't even directed at you. And I don't know where you think an ad hominem took place but it surely did not.
 
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mark kennedy

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Actually I found the definition of yom on Google. Though I already knew what it was. Again, I was simply answering a post, and it wasn't even directed at you. And I don't know where you think an ad hominem took place but it surely did not.

There's nothing personal about it, your using an English dictionary to define a Hebrew word that doesn't need a dictionary definition. There is a perfectly good Hebrew/English dictionary definition on Blue Letter Bible that serves only to indicate the it's been properly translated into English and it means a regular 24 hour day.
 
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mark kennedy

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None of that gives us the Creationist equation I was asking you about:
"evening plus morning equals one day".
'from one sunset to the next...as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1'

That's not equivocation, that's what the word for day means, it means a regular 24 hour day. Equivocation is what you guys do with Darwinism and the genuine article of science. You equivocate 'the change of alleles in populations over time' with the naturalistic assumptions of Darwinian universal common ancestry. See how that works? Two things that are different being passed off as if they were the same thing.

What I did was show you from the Scriptures that 'Yom' in the context of Genesis 1 is a regular 24 hour day, evening plus morning equals one day. You can't refute it or even contradict it so you just deny it which is willful ignorance. There's nothing wrong with the definition, it doesn't even require a dictionary since it translates seamlessly into the English, it even has the Hebrew equivalent of an ordered list, 'first day, second day...', None so blind as those who will not see.

Have a nice day
Mark
 
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Assyrian

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No equivocation here Mark, no 'wilful ignorance' no blindness, just pointing out you haven't answered my question yet.
Where is day defined as "evening plus morning equals one day"?
 
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Achilles6129

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No equivocation here Mark, no 'wilful ignorance' no blindness, just pointing out you haven't answered my question yet.
Where is day defined as "evening plus morning equals one day"?

I think it's just common sense. Incidentally, whenever "day" is defined by 1, 2, 3, 4, etc., in Scripture, it is talking about a literal day.
 
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Achilles6129

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Are you saying then that it was God's will for Adam to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil? Because that seems to be what you're saying.

If that is what you are claiming, then it would make no sense for God to expressly command Adam not to eat of the tree.

It always strikes me as odd when Christians think God's Plan A was originally Salvation by Works.

Salvation by obedience. And it does seem like Plan A, since it's the first gospel we were ever given


I'm sorry but I'm not following your line of reasoning. Satan was not originally a part of this created cosmos, as Satan is a spirit. Satan belongs to a realm outside of this cosmos. No-one knows when Satan fell - it could have been eons before this cosmos was created. Satan, a spirit, possessed a physical animal at the beginning. This does not mean that God created Satan fallen or anything of the sort.
 
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mark kennedy

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If that is what you are claiming, then it would make no sense for God to expressly command Adam not to eat of the tree.

Salvation by obedience. And it does seem like Plan A, since it's the first gospel we were ever given

Gotta a tricky one for you. If Adam were obedient would the righteousness of God we receive by faith, still be a gift of grace? Of course God's righteousness doesn't change but does righteousness by grace through faith?

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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If Adam were obedient we would not be born fallen. We would, however, still be able to disobey God's commands. If we were not born fallen there would be no need for salvation.

All true, what I have wondered about is whether or not righteousness could still be considered by grace through faith. Sin is not so much the presence of something like an offense or a misdeed, it's the absence of righteousness. Adam was innocent until he disobeyed but was he righteous? I think it's safe to say that Adam wasn't trusting God when he ate the forbidden fruit. I also think it's obvious that righteousness is a communicable attribute of God that can only come from God.

What I've been seriously wondering, even though it's probably of no great significance, is whether righteousness would still be a free gift. I think the larger question that I'm considering is was Adam righteous before the fall or just what they call blameless or innocent.

Just food for thought.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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