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Evolution vs Creationism

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LittleNipper

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Well, the evolutionist/uniformitarian does look at fossils found in a natural form of concrete, and conclude the age of that fossil from the chemical make-up of the material forming the mold. Did anyone ever test the age of a piece of concrete with the fossilized print of some neighborhood child or someone's pet. They might be in for a shock. My suggestion is that the concrete will date to its mineral makeup. And you know that little Billy only stepped there in 1958.....

The evolutionist/uniformitarian also concludes that any order in the "geologic scale" he thinks he sees must indicate long periods of time but cannot imagine that perhaps GOD was simply making order out of the satanic chaos generated at the time of the FLOOD. He will not accept the FLOOD because he has concluded that the mountains are far too high and there is not enough water ------ how honest is that? How much real research was done? None, I suspect. They already reached their conclusions based on wrong assumptions and no indepth research just late 18th century "educated" contemplations.
 
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Molal

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Hi,

Fossils in sedimentary facies are not dated according to radiometric means. They are dated through a few different methods - by dating bounding igneous (and metamorphic rock) and through species identification and correlation to other areas where date constraints are known. Therefore, knowing this information, your suggestion becomes incoherent.

The problem with the flood is not the water, or the high mountains, but that the sedimentary sequences observed through out the world do not conform to a flood environment. There is no evidence, anywhere of a global flood in the geologic record. This can be observed in the methodology of oil and gas exploration and ore exploration. If one were to use a flood geology hypothesis absolutely no oil, gas or ore deposits would be found other than stochastically.
 
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gluadys

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You are quite right. That is why radiometric dating is NOT used on sedimentary rock (where fossils are found). As molal explains, radiometric dating is used on igneous and metamorphic rock that sets boundaries to the fossil-bearing rock.

How much real research was done?

Quite a bit actually. You can read about it here
 
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sfs

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Thank you for taking the trouble to spell out your argument.

You have overlooked several factors in your approach. One fundamental mistake is that you are using a model to draw conclusions about how the natural world operates, without confirming that you have included the essential features that you are interested in. (As statisticians say, all models are wrong, but some models are useful.)

The first factor that you have overlooked is that your loss of genetic diversity does not correspond to any real biological situation, at least not one that has occurred at any point in the last several billion years. You never start with a population with a wide range of frog genotypes unrelated to fitness -- where would you get such creatures?. Real populations are almost always already well adapted to their environment and lifestyle, so there is no big spread of suboptimal genetic diversity to lose. You start with all frogs already clustered around local fitness peaks; that's the equilibrium situation, so the loss of diversity you're talking about never occurs.

Second, your model assumes that there are simple local optima, that all frogs in a region of genotype space will converge on a single optimum genotype. Real fitness peaks aren't like that: there is always variation in fitness on a fine scale, both in space and in time. Frogs that are ideally suited to this year's pond will have offspring that are less well suited to next year's pond, or to the part of the pond they happen to end up in. This means that real species are clouds in genotype space, loosely clustered around broad peaks. The varied and varying environment ensures that a range of genetic variation will continue to be present in the population. Plus, of course, new mutations are constantly pushing the cloud outward, even as selection prevents it from expanding too far.

Third, you have neglected the effect of frequency-dependent selection, and more broadly the dependence of the fitness landscape on the genotypes. Organisms generally have to compete for resources, both with conspecifics and with other species; a genotype that was most fit for the first 25 frogs in the pond may be less fit for the 26th, which might be better off preferring a different food source, for example.

What this means is that, in the real world, there is pressure not only for organisms to evolve toward the local optimum, but also to evolve away from the local optimum (optimum only in the absence of competitors) in order to fill a new niche. So there is a tendency both toward loss of diversity ("purifying selection") and toward speciation and radiative expansions.

This IS happening with every population round the world. We are getting greater "specialisation", but at the cost of lower information potential. Kinda like kinetic versus potential energy.
I'm sorry, but there is zero empirical evidence that this is happening in any systematic way in the real world. If your model says that something must be happening, and it isn't happening, the problem lies in your model.

Why do you think mongrels have less disease problems than particular breeds? It is purely because the information loss is not the same. There is less likelihood that the information necessary to combat disease X has been bred out of them.

Dog breeds are the result of extremely intense selection, operating on small populations in the very recent past. This means that many deleterious alleles have been fixed in breeds, sometimes because they were directly favored by the breeders, and sometimes because they were linked to favored alleles. Nothing like the process has happened to wild dogs, has it? Have they been splintering into genetically impoverished specializations?
 
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LittleNipper

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But I would imagine that igneous and metamorphic rock would not contain fossils. I also understand that "LUCY" was pretty much found on the surface. So where did they get the age?
 
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sfs

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A very poor model for evolution. Every generation diversity is indeed decreased, both by natural selection and by random loss of alleles because of the finite sample size. Every generation diversity is also increased, because of a continual introduction of new mutations into each generation. To show that diversity is necessarily decreasing, you have to show that the loss is always greater than the gain. This you will be unable to do, because the loss decreases as the genetic diversity declines, while the increase from mutation is always the same (assuming a constant sized population). In this simple model, there is always an equilibrium value of diversity.

By the way, you really should consider the possibility that evolutionary biologists are not complete morons. Population geneticists have included highly proficient statisticians, including some who pioneered important statistical techniques. Do you really think we wouldn't have noticed as trivial a problem as this?
 
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Molal

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But I would imagine that igneous and metamorphic rock would not contain fossils. I also understand that "LUCY" was pretty much found on the surface. So where did they get the age?
This website:http://www.asu.edu/clas/iho/lucy.html#found
describes the conditions under which lucy was found. You will note the fossils were found in a wash-out gully - clearly the overlaying material had been eroded away revealing the fossil hominid.

The website also provides information as to how the fossil was dated.
 
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mark kennedy

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I did not change the subject, I simply expanded the range and you seem uncomfortable with that. With 35 million single base substitutions you are right on track with the known mutation rate, no problem there. Then when looking at the indels and the rearrangements you want to talk in circles and I really don't get it. The is a known mutation rate and you are very well aware of the detailed specifics. Indels simply don't happen as much as these single base substitutions.

That brings us to a very serious discrepancy, the insertions and deletions far out number the single base substitutions by 3 to 4 times. Chromosomal rearrangemenst would be required in upwards of 70 million base pairs invovled. You offer nothing in the way of substantive, much less empirical proof that this is even possible.


Sure. Here's the explanation: sometimes mutations occur that are insertions or deletions of sections of DNA. This kind of mutation occurs about one-seventh as often as substitution of a single base.

One seventh as often but 4 times larger and often includes literally millions of nucleotides/base pairs. If you want to get into the detailed specifics I have no problem with that.

At least a dozen people have tried to explain this to you, on two different forums, so you are unlikely to understand it when I explain it yet again, but I will do it anyway.

Oh sure they have argued but actually explain is something they are incapable of.


All I will respond with at this point Steve is a simple expression, 'per nucleotide'. It's time that we looked at the detailed specifics and you and I both know that the audiance in this theater of the mind is irrelevant.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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sfs

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Then when looking at the indels and the rearrangements you want to talk in circles and I really don't get it.
Your last clause above is certainly correct. The indel situation is actually pretty simple, and you have consistently misunderstood it for years.

The is a known mutation rate and you are very well aware of the detailed specifics. Indels simply don't happen as much as these single base substitutions.
Which is what I just said.

That brings us to a very serious discrepancy, the insertions and deletions far out number the single base substitutions by 3 to 4 times.
No they don't, Mark. An indel is an insertion or a deletion. A mutation that inserts or deletes 1 million base pairs is still a single insertion or deletion. Insertions and deletions happen about one-seventh as often as single-base substitutions. That's what we count when we measure a mutation rate -- not how many nucleotides have been inserted or deleted.

Chromosomal rearrangemenst would be required in upwards of 70 million base pairs invovled. You offer nothing in the way of substantive, much less empirical proof that this is even possible.
I've run through the papers on the subject with you before. It did no good, and I'm not going to bother again.


Yes, that is the expression you always misunderstand. I don't know how you can not understand what it means, after all of the people who have explained it to you, but you still don't. The indel mutation rate is reported as a rate of mutations "per nucleotide"; this is the rate that is one-seventh the single-base substitution mutation rate. It does not tell you how many nucleotides will be inserted or deleted in the mutations, nor does it tell you how many nucleotides should be different between humans and chimpanzees. All it tells you is how many mutations happened. To know how many nucleotides will be different you have to know the average size of the insertion or deletion. That we did not know before comparing humans and chimpanzees, and still know only from that comparison.

It's time that we looked at the detailed specifics and you and I both know that the audiance in this theater of the mind is irrelevant.
Mark, I realize you sincerely believe that you have found a major problem with evolutionary theory, and that you have baffled a professional geneticist with your insight. Your belief is sincere but delusional, I'm afraid. We are not going to go through the specifics yet again.
 
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mark kennedy

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Your last clause above is certainly correct. The indel situation is actually pretty simple, and you have consistently misunderstood it for years.

Oh I understand things better then you want to admit. The differences are not accounted for in modern science and the professional scientists and academic professionals insist that we pretend as if they have. The mutation rate for substitutions line up pretty well but you have never admitted that the per nucleotide mutation rate for indels does not. You can dimiss it, you can ignore it and you can refuse to believe it but you know it whether or not you want to admit it.


Which is what I just said.

It is so strange watching someone I know deals in specifics talking in generalities.



That's not true Steve, when you are talking about a comparison you are talking about something that is in one genome that is not in the other. If it's a million nucleotides then it is a major difference. The actual genes are far more different then science has been telling us and you know it. The human brain had neither the time nor the means to evolve from that of the apes. You can follow the crowd and pretend that it did or you can make history by exposing the error. My firm conviction is that you will do neither.


I've run through the papers on the subject with you before. It did no good, and I'm not going to bother again.

When we talked previously you insisted that 20 million base pairs worth of rearrangments and 90 million base pairs worth of indels was no problem. You never said why but that is how an a priori assumption works.

Don't bother yourself with the differences but I am telling you that the known differences are growing as we speak. The mutation rate would have had to spike about 2 million years ago causing the cranial capacity to double. Nothing like this has happened in any living system known to man but we are supposed to assume, unconditionally that it did. I simply refuse, in the absense of a directly observed or demonstrated mechanism for overhauling vitally important genes you are arguing from supposition not science.

Yes, that is the expression you always misunderstand. I don't know how you can not understand what it means, after all of the people who have explained it to you, but you still don't.

Let the games begin.


But it does tell us what the per nucleotide rate should be. We know because you guys have been measuring it for years. The per nucleotide rate for indels is an order of magnitude lower then that for single base substitutions. I asked you about the mutational forces that shaped the human genome and you abandoned the thread. You and your merry band of TEs argued that a transcript error was not a mutation. For five pages I argued that you had twisted my statement and finally demonstrated that an uncorrected transcript error is indeed a mutation and you abandoned the thread.

I assure you that as a Christian and a student of the Scriptures I could easily reconcile a figurative understanding of Genesis 1 and 2. My problem is not Scriptural it's coming from the actual science. Now, formally engaged with a professional scientists I can't get the most fundamental questions addressed, much less answered. I can only conclude you don't know but want me to assume something that the evidence contradicts.



I know you have my best interests at heart Steve, believe me. I know you think that my theology has led me down a blind alley in the dark and left me defensless. In all these thousands of exchanges I have yet to see fundamental questions answered and professional scientists resort to pedantic satire and personal attacks.

So why don't you shut me up once and for all. Just tell me the per nucleotide mutation rate required for the indels. You think you can dismiss this and that is all there is to it. Your wrong and if you are not interested in dealing with this in a general way then don't be supprised if this comes back to haunt you.

All I am saying is expand your beautifully written piece on mutations to include indels and rearrangements. It should be no problem since your not worried about the differences until they climb to, what is it, 20%.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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SLP

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It seems your old pal, genetics expert Mark Kennedy, is up to his old tricks on CARM.

Not only is he copy-and-pasting his same error-filled claims there about indels and such, but he is claiming that you 'run away' whenever he brings up indels.
He's had it all explained to him AGAIN by at least 2 people there, but he still keeps going on with the same uninformed delusional nonsense.

I'm sure there is a description for that type of confabulation...
 
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JBJoe

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Wow, sorry I missed this thread the first time it came around.

I am also a trained mathematician, statistician and computer scientist with a passion for Genetic Programming and to a lesser degree Genetic Algorithms. I love Koza's work. However I also paid my way through college working in computational genomics.

Using GP to argue the validity of biological evolution is like arguing the Chinese Dragon Dance validates that dragons used to be in China. There are a host of simplifications taken in GP to make the problem tractable in compute time. For example: speciation, by design, is not possible in GP. Two genetic programs in the same run can always interbreed regardless of the size or complexity of their program. This argument was one of the more silly I had seen - regardless of what the project grade was.
 
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SLP

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I had 'debated' Kennedy on here before on similar subjects, and he never changed one bit.

Here it is a year and a half later on another forum and I am watching him use the EXACT SAME claims!

I mean, EXACT - even using the same sentences verbatim in many cases.


What an imbecile.
 
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RobTheMagnificent

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I am rather baffled why such a debate is even taking place in the 21st century.

The Genesis account is a myth, its meaning may have certain true values, but nevertheless, it is a myth, which has no testability in terms of science.

However, the theory of evolution is somewhat testable, if a creationist wants to claim that the genesis myth is true, it would go against all scientific evidence, isn't it time everyone used reason?
 
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Jimlarmore

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Mark,
I'm not well versed on what you guys are debating here, so forgive me if I am speaking out of turn. I will go back and research this a little. However, based on what I am reading the macro-evolutionists are backed into a corner and unable to refute what you are saying. What they always refer to when this happens is to personally attack you and say you don't understand or are ignorant on the subject. You may be ignorant and not understanding on some issues as they say, I don't know yet. However, based on what I have experienced in the past you more than likely have a valid point they can't refute so their only recourse is to make you appear to be ignorant or not understanding the material under discussion.

These debates nearly always follow a predictable pattern.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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Mallon

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Indeed they do. The pattern is usually this:
1. Neocreationist makes claim about a field they have no experience in. Usually based off something they read on the Internet.
2. Scientist, who works in said field, corrects erroneous claim (I will point out that sfs is a geneticist. We have many researchers on these forums, most of which aren't neocreationists. We've taken polls to show as much).
3. Neocreationist igores correction/claims there is a conspiracy against the Truth/repeats erroneous statement indefinitely.

Repeat.

Many neocreationists accuse scientists of hubris in not taking their claims about science seriously. I think the opposite is more likely, given that many people here have spent years of their lives and thousands of their own dollars applying themselves to some field of science, only to be told by an electrician/grocer/stay-at-home-mom (no that these aren't fine jobs) that they don't know what they're talking about.
 
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Jimlarmore

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Spending thousands of their dollars and years studying a field with the wrong perspective will not create knowledge base of truth. Men spent all their lives assuming spontaneous generation of life was a fact and could defend it logically by exposing rotting meat to the out of doors where all life began. Some men spent all of their lives thinking that cells were insignificant protoplasms that had little to do with life. IOW, so called experts don't know it all and in some cases they certainly don't even have a correct perpective on what is truth.

Here's how it usually goes.

1. Point: A creationists makes a point that challenges the mainstream paradigm or provides evidence that refutes macro-evolutions theory.

Counter-point: Macro-evolutionists counters with articles from off the internet that speaks to the original point or evidence but does not refute it.

2. Re-confirmation of original point or issue of evidence:

Counter response: To attack the original poster as being ignorant not understanding the facts.

Sound familiar?

God bless
Jim Larmore
 
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