Evolution vs. Creationism

[Deamiter]

Lets keep it clean in here -- there will be no insinuation that another member is less Christian and there will be no name calling OR insinuation that another member is less intelligent. Such comments are flaming no matter what excuse you happen to bring up.

Further, if you ARE insulted, please report the post and then leave for a while. We will get to it absolutely as soon as we can, and responding with a flame will still get you a warning!

 

[Ondoher]

Ok, accepted! I think of it this way, Everytime I've come across written communication, whether it's a painting on a cave wall, novel from Amazon or the words "I Love You" inscribed in the sand on the beach, there has always been someone who did this writting. Even if I can't see the couple who wrote "I Love You", I don't assume that the words randomly appeared by chance or by the movement of the waves. Someone of intelligence made that writting communication.

Written comminication is a poor analog for DNA. You can change as much as 80% of a gene and still retain function. The same cannot be said of words, sentences, or paragraphs. Not only that, but DNA actually looks like the result of evolutionary mechanisms. There are gene families resulting from duplication and divergence, there are pseudogenes, there are ERV's, there is all sorts of stuff in there that is best explained through evolution.

Really, Darwin already defeated Paley nearly 150 years ago.

 

[JohnR7]

responding with a flame will still get you a warning!

Do you mean that we are not allowed to fight fire with fire?

 

[JohnR7]

Since these proofs support the accuracy of the text we can understand scientifically, it makes sense to trust the Bible’s text that we can not yet understand.

That is what I believe. There is enough of the Bible that we can verify as being true, to give us good reason to believe that ALL of it is true. Trusting God did not happen overnight for me. It took maybe two or three years for me to learn how to trust God. At first I trusted Him in the long run, but I was concerned that there would be short term suffering to get to the long term benifit. But that turned out not to be true. God wants the best for us here and now.

 

[staugustine68]

That is what I believe. There is enough of the Bible that we can verify as being true, to give us good reason to believe that ALL of it is true. Trusting God did not happen overnight for me. It took maybe two or three years for me to learn how to trust God. At first I trusted Him in the long run, but I was concerned that there would be short term suffering to get to the long term benifit. But that turned out not to be true. God wants the best for us here and now.

I posted this in another thread, and I wanted to share this here.
IMO, God wants us to trust him and to act on faith..I believe that's why he doesn't reveal himself in a certain way. He does, infact, reveal himself to me in other ways.

 

[Ondoher]

Do you mean that we are not allowed to fight fire with fire?

I think the point is that two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

That is what I believe. There is enough of the Bible that we can verify as being true, to give us good reason to believe that ALL of it is true...

So you believe that the Sun rotates about the Earth?

If you want to believe that, or that the earth is 6,000 years old, okay, fine, I disagree, but then I also disagree with those who think we should do our worshipping on the Sabbath rather than Sunday.

But there is a difference between having faith and claiming that the physical evidence supports your position.

Have faith and may God go with you.

But don't go around spreading false information or bearing false witness.

 

[SODinOZ]

If E=MC2 then M=root of E/C
this is where matter comes from; energy. Before the big bang there was energy, no matter at all. And without matter, there is no time or space, just eternity. Newton said that matter cannot be created or destroyed, but transformed from one state to another, he said the same thing about energy. What he did NOT say was that matter could not be transformed into energy or vice versa. Eienstien says the two are the same, it is just a matter of reletivity.
So there you have it science and the bible agree again. We just have to wait for the rest of the scientific and religious community to catch on.
As for evolution, Darwin himself agrees that "origin of the species" is a failure. But that his premise of "survival of the fittest" is a fine example of how a species may adapt within the constraints of its inherent genetic program, to better facilitate the survival of that species intact, when the major portion of the population is stressed to near extinction. A facility appearing so completely random, yet with such incredible finese, and common across all species and kingdoms examined, that I am completely convinced it can only have been designed by an intelegent being.
Some evolutionist should try to read beyond Darwins opening hypothisis, and skip down to the conclusion at the end of the document.
SODinOZ

 

[Arikay]

Maybe you can enlighten us about this conclusion, and then explain exactly what it has to do with the current theory of evolution.

 

[SODinOZ]

Darwins conclusion was that 'his' theory of evolution was not supported in the field of experimental proof. And as such cannot thus be proven. His own conclusions where that his theory was flawed, so as to offer no scientific credibility whatsoever. But that he submitted the paper regardless because of the enormous body of work which went into arriving at that conclusion. Now I know that modern evolutionists spout a different slant than that of Darwin, however there still remains no proof that any trans-special barrier has ever been crossed.
Now I know that statisically you are up against finding such eveidence, but similar statistical barriers exist for those supporting creation theories. What we do know though, is that in a book written some 4000 years ago, there is an accurate, if not detailed-enough for some, record of the order in which the fosil record shows life on this planet coming into being. That along with astronomical information such as God causes the earth to hang on nothing etc, showing that the bible clearly showed that the earth was not supported by giant turtles and elephants etc, was not flat and that there was no edge to it from which one could fall etc. All in all, I have to consider that whatever science suggests to me, should be able to fit within the context of biblical writing without too much difficulty, or be considered dubious at best.
And yes, its true that sometimes we read the bible and think we understand something, where in fact we later find we should have read it differently, but in resolving such things is where true understanding of God, and the universe He created is to be found.
I guess what I am trying to suggest by introducing what I have to this topic is this: There is always another way to look at a problem, and those who have little faith, knowledge and trust in their own systems, will feel somewhat justified when they can convince another of the possition they have taken. This applies to all people, but is especially shameful when it is said of those who call themselves Christians.
SODinOZ

 

[Arikay]

"Darwins conclusion was that 'his' theory of evolution was not supported in the field of experimental proof. And as such cannot thus be proven."

Not supported and cannot be supported are two different things. Yes, I believe Darwin did admit that the evidence wasn't there to support some of his views, but thats what time and research can help fix. Since he wrote that, a lot of evidence has been found to support evolution.


"no proof that any trans-special barrier has ever been crossed."

What would you consider a cross of the trans-special (species?) barrier?

 

[Valkhorn]

What we do know though, is that in a book written some 4000 years ago, there is an accurate, if not detailed-enough for some, record of the order in which the fosil record shows life on this planet coming into being.

What?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

So there was an Earth before light was created in Genesis 1:3? We KNOW this to be false. The sun existed just as long as the Earth did. In fact, if anything, the Sun was around just a little longer than the Earth.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

We know this to be false. The Earth is not sitting in a sea of water.

Another silly example:

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

So there was light before there was a sun and the stars?

We know this cannot be true.

And worse yet, this is only the beginning to a falsification of the a literal interpretation of Genesis. However I doubt you'll respond to this but have fun trying!

 

[SODinOZ]

"no proof that any trans-special barrier has ever been crossed."

What would I consider a cross of the trans-special (species?) barrier?

I think that in terms of what we are talking about here, it would mean where a new (formerly unknown) species where born of another existing species. This would not include mules, which cannot reproduce 'each according to its kind', nor to laboratory DNA spliced organisms, nor where anti rejection drugs where used to allow gestation to sufficient term.

SODinOZ

 

[Arikay]

It sounds like this,
http://www.holysmoke.org/new-species.htm
Might fit the bill.

There are quite a few other examples of speciation, although this is the simplist and quickest I had on hand.

"no proof that any trans-special barrier has ever been crossed."

What would I consider a cross of the trans-special (species?) barrier?

I think that in terms of what we are talking about here, it would mean where a new (formerly unknown) species where born of another existing species. This would not include mules, which cannot reproduce 'each according to its kind', nor to laboratory DNA spliced organisms, nor where anti rejection drugs where used to allow gestation to sufficient term.

SODinOZ

 

[Jet Black]

This would not include mules, which cannot reproduce 'each according to its kind',

hinnys can reproduce. come on dude, make up your mind.

 

[SODinOZ]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This refers to matter and the space beween it, what biblical students would refer to the second heaven. (first being our atmosphere and the third being where God and His angels live)

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
The biggest body of water Moses (the one who penned Genesis) might have ever seen maybe the mediteranian sea. I believe Gen 1:6 refers to the graviational effect of the matter strewn about to begin to come together in planetary and stellar masses, and as such is figurative, just as when the bible speaks of beasts in revelation we know it to mean world systems and governments, not actual beasts of these fantastic descriptions (see Rev13:11).

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
We do know of another light source mentioned throughout the bible. The glory of God Himself or Shikina (pardon spelling please). Furthermore the bible tells us that when the kingdom of God comes, that this same glory will be throughout all the earth, so that night shall not be as we know it now, though the sun shall still travell across the sky to divide the morning from the evening.

I don't pretend that it must all be 'literal', as stated, many parts of the bible are written figuratively, just as Jesus spoke in parables. Just that it is accurate =P

Now what I was refering to was the order of the living things created as stated in the bible, are the same as the fosil record states. This was not so much figurative, fo fishes means fishes, and plants mean plants etc.

SODinOZ

 

[SODinOZ]

There are quite a few other examples of speciation, although this is the simplist and quickest I had on hand.

Thanks for the link, it looks interesting but I'll want to check it out on a reputable site first, such as newscientist.com

Is there a guarantee that it isn't an escaped gene-spliced experiment? It could be another one of the other so-called missing links such as Eohippus, Archaeoperyx, or the Australian platypus, echidna, or lungfish. Admittedly in the plant kingdom, rather than animal, but hey.

I would welcome some other links when you get a minute to share them.

SODinOZ

 

[SODinOZ]

hinnys can reproduce. come on dude, make up your mind.

Okay Jet, I'll bite;
What do you cross to make a hinny, and what do you get when you breed them? Can you als please define some reputable source for your info, or at least explain what a hinny is. Thanks.
SODinOZ

 

[Jet Black]

Okay Jet, I'll bite;
What do you cross to make a hinny,

a horse and a donkey/ass.

and what do you get when you breed them?

you get a hinny.

Can you als please define some reputable source for your info, or at least explain what a hinny is.

a hinny is a cross between a horse and a donkey. So simple I doubt you need a reputable source, but if you really want to argue the case I am sure that a google search would pull up a reputable source in about ten seconds, depending on connection speeds and child safety settings.

 

[Jet Black]

Now what I was refering to was the order of the living things created as stated in the bible, are the same as the fosil record states. This was not so much figurative, fo fishes means fishes, and plants mean plants etc.

really? can you order the following into the same order as (1) the bible states and (2) the fossil/natural record states

(a) flowering plants
(b) grass
(c) birds
(d) whales
(e) cod
(f) donkeys
(g) humans
(h) The York Groundsel.
(i) ferns
(j) worms