Evolution vs. Creationism

[ProtestantDan]

It is one thing to start with saying the Bible is infallible and proceed to verify this by physical observation.

It is quite another to start with saying evolution is true and proceed to prove it to the Bible.

Good point, but how does this address my post or the quote you snipped?

 

[Pilgrim 33]

[/color]

True, the early Hebrew culture had no developed idea of a place of eternal punishemnt, but they DID very much hold to an idea of the ressurrection from the dead, and eternal life.

ok

The Christians on the other hand did hold to a place of eternal punishment and suffering,

Absolutely, not!

as well as to a bodily ressurrection to new life eternal, be it in Heaven

ok

or Hell.

nope

I agree with you that in many older languages, and even in some modern ones, that WHICH words were used can at times be as important for interpretation as WHAT those words said, one leads to the other.

ok

From Bullinger's Appendixes:

"Hell" is the English rendering of two different Greek words in the New Testament


The English word is from the Anglo-Saxon hel, Genitive case helle = a hidden place, from the Anglo-Saxon helan = to hide.

It is in the New Testament used as the translation of two Greek words :-

1. [font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Gehenna. Greek geenna. This is the transliteration of the Hebrew Gai' Hinnom, that is to say the Valley of Hinnom or "the Valley" of [the sons of] Hinnom, where were the fires through which children were passed in the worship of Moloch. [/size][/font]
   
   [font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]In the Old Testament Tophet was the Hebrew word used, because it was a place in this valley.
   
   In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem. Hence, geenna was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God. Sometimes, "geenna of fire". See [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Kings 23:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Isaiah 30:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Jeremiah 7:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]31, 32[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 19:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11-14[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1].
   
   Geenna occurs 12 times, and is always rendered "hell", videlicet Matthew 5:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]22, 29, 30[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 10:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]28[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 18:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]9[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 23:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15, 33[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Mark 9:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]43, 45, 47[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Luke 12:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. James 3:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. [/size][/font]
2. [font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Hades. Greek hades, from a (privative) and idein, to see (Appendix 133. I. i); used by the Greeks for the unseen world. [/size][/font]
   
   [font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]The meaning which the Greeks put upon it does not concern us; nor have we anything to do with the imaginations of the heathen, or the traditions of Jews or Romanists, or the teachings of demons or evil spirits, or of any who still cling to them.
   
   The Holy Spirit has used it as one of the "words pertaining to the earth", and in so doing has "purified" it, "as silver tried in a furnace" (see notes on Psalms 12:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]). From this we learn that His own words "are pure", but words belonging to this earth have to be "purified".
   
   The Old Testament is the fountain head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew Sh[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]ol is a word Divine in its origin and usage. The Greek Hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.
   
   Seeing that the Holy Spirit has used it in Acts 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]27, 31[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] as His own equivalent of Sh[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]ol in Psalm 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1], He has settled, once for all, the sense in which we are to understand it. The meaning He has given to Sh[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]ol in Psalms 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] is the one meaning we are to give it wherever it occurs in the New Testament, whether we transliterate it or translate it. We have no liberty to do otherwise, and must discard everything outside the Word of God.
   
   The word occurs eleven times (Matthew 11:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]23[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Luke 10:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]15[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]23[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Acts 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]27, 31[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Corinthians 15:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]55[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Revelation 1:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 6:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]8[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 20:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]13, 14[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]); and is rendered "hell" in every passage except one, where it is rendered "grave" ([/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Corinthians 15:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]55[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1], margin "hell").
   
   In the Revised Version the word is always transliterated "Hades", except in [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Corinthians 15:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]55[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] (where "death" is substituted because of the reading, in all the texts, of thanate for hade), and in the American Revised Version also.
   
   As Hades is the Divine Scriptural equivalent of Sh[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]ol, further light may be gained from Appendix 35, and a reference to the 65 passages there given. It may be well to note that while "Hades" is rendered "hell" in the New Testament (except once, where the rendering "the grave" could not be avoided), Sh[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]ol, its Hebrew equivalent, occurs 65 times, and is rendered "the grave" 31 times (or 54%); "hell" 31 times (4 times with margin "the grave", reducing it to 41.5%); and "pit" only 3 times (or 4.5 %).
   
   "The grave", therefore, is obviously the best rendering, meaning the state of death (German sterbend, for which we have no English equivalent); not the act of dying, as an examination of all the occurrences of both words will show. [/size][/font]
   1. [font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]The rendering "pit" so evidently means "the grave" that it may at once be substituted for it (Numbers 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]30, 33[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Job 17:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]16[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]). [/size][/font]
   2. [font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]The rendering "the grave" (not "a grave", which is Hebrew keber or bor) exactly expresses the meaning of both Sh[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=-1]e[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]ol and Hades. For, as to direction, it is always down: as to place, it is in the earth: as to relation, it is always in contrast with the state of the living (Deuteronomy 32:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]22-25[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] and [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Samuel 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6-8[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]); as to association, it is connected with mourning (Genesis 37:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]34, 35[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]), sorrow (Genesis 42:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]38[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Samuel 22:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Psalms 18:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 116:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]3[/font][font=Aldne,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]), fright and terror (Numbers 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]27, 34[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]), mourning (Isaiah 38:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]3, 10, 17, 18[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]), silence (Psalms 6:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 31:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Ecclesiastes 9:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]), no knowledge (Ecclesiastes 9:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5, 6, 10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]), punishment (Numbers 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]29, 34[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Kings 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]6, 9[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Job 24:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]19[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Psalms 9:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]17[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1] (Revised Version = re-turned)), corruption (Psalms 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]10[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Acts 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]27, 31[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]); as to duration, resurrection is the only exit from it (Psalms 16:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]11[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Acts 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]27, 31[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 13:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]33-37[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]1[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Corinthians 15:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]55[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]. Revelation 1:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]18[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]; 20:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]5, 13, 14[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]). [/size][/font]
3. [font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Tartaroo (occurs only in [/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]2[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]Peter 2:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]4[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1]) = to thrust down to Tartarus, Tartarus being a Greek word, not used elsewhere, or at all in the Septuagint. Homer describes it as subterranean (compare Deuteronomy 32:[/size][/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman]22[/font][font=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][size=+1], which may refer to this). The Homeric Tartarus is the prison of the Titans, or giants (compare Hebrew Rephaim, Appendix 25), who rebelled against Zeus. [/size][/font]

First, I'm not ceratin what you mean by the judgement of the nations.

Matthew 25:32, "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Second, I don't recall anything in Eschatology teaching that the Jews will reign with a 'king Isreal' on the new earth.

would have read better with a comma in between King and Israel.

Finally, The book of Revelation was written not to Jews, but to the Christian Church -

Absolutely, not. The book is, without doubt, Jewish. Not Christian. True, Christians, as with all promises and prophecies, have stolen from the Jews the good and left them the curses. The result of proper study superceded by prooftexting.

since only the soul lives forever.

nope. Scripture repeatedly and emphatically states the soul becomes nothing, forgotten, no sentiance, no memory, no nada upon death.

As for Jesus and the Father being one, this refers not to phsical placement, but to relational positioning, as it does with believers and
christ, and the HS.

and they are ALL in the same place.

The FAther and the Lamb (Jesus) are referred to as the temple in the New Jerusalem,

not "AS" but "ARE".

but The New Jerusalem is on the New Earth, not in the New Heaven.

Comes down from heaven and sets on the earth

Revelation 21:2, "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

(Israel, not the Christians, are the promised Bride)

It would be impossible for Believers to dwell with Godas the fianl verses of Revelation say we will, if we are in heaven and He is on Earth.

omnipresence.

The Revealtion clearly says that those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be the only ones to enter the temple in the New Jerusalem.

irrelevent to eternal torture and damnation which is totally pagan and later adopted by the early Catholic church and also used to control the parishioners and dole out indulgences.

BUT, if as you say,

those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be the only ones to enter the temple in the New Jerusalem

then when Revelation 21:22 says,

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it."

it is telling us we will be in the New Jerusalem, in The Temple, in The Father, in The Son, IN The Godhead, Itself !!!

John 17:21-24, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." [/QUOTE]

As for this, I would agree Satan is against Christians, but he is also against all of mankind,

nope. Scripture is plain on this, those In Christ are The Father's children, the rest are *******s and sons of their father the father of lies.

because we are God's creation, dearly loved.

Can't do a thing for them if they don't come to The Father THROUGH The Son The WAY God, through Jesus Christ, prescribed.

Satan also is NOT, and never has been the second most powerful being in creation.

Most assuredly, he is.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

This doesn't exactly sound like a Christain Theology.



The entire concept of hell and as a place of conscious eternal damnation is entirely pagan in nature.

This demonically inspired concept of a place of eternal torture and damnation has been perhaps Satan's second biggest success for it has likely been the single major reason why most have rejected the Christian message of salvation.

we've all heard it many many times..."why would a merciful and just God make someone torture and burn forever just because they never heard of Him?"

And they ARE right for it IS against His very justice and mercy!

Luke 16:8, "And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

 

[tocis]

E

It is proven fact. Speciation has been observed in real life. What can be argued where some of the details are concerned is the theory behind it, but the mountain of evidence supporting evolutionary theory is so overwhelmingly huge that it escapes my understanding how anyone can honestly believe it to be a lie, unless he really thinks of... not the real thing but one of the common strawmen built by professional creation "scientists".

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Young Earth vs Old Earth does not appear to be a salvation issue

That's what makes all this so much fun. As long as each of us is secure in our salvation, in The message of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then all the rest of it is just history, customs, traditions and our "guessticulations" about what coulda been and what could be, even what is, and it's all just a lot of fun along the way as time passes us by.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Do you have any evidence to support this claim, if so please present it.

Ghost

Start HERE, holler if you need help finding more.

 

[Arikay]

The danger is that it can turn into sin when some are willing to lie just to be right. It can also push people away once they realize they have been lied too.

Young Earth vs Old Earth does not appear to be a salvation issue

That's what makes all this so much fun. As long as each of us is secure in our salvation, in The message of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then all the rest of it is just history, customs, traditions and our "guessticulations" about what coulda been and what could be, even what is, and it's all just a lot of fun along the way as time passes us by.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

It kinda went from

Here,

The quoted definition's subject is Science, not evolution. To automatically include evolution into this definition is an unqualified leap in logic.

The objectivity and, thus, its objective, is, at the onset biased to begin with; as defined above, the desire to seek the "best" explanation is not the viewpoint of the evolutionsits; rather, the preconceived attitude, "i believe it's right, so now I'm going to prove it's right" is the approach used. Nothing else is even considered. This is simply poor Science and has no business being included in the realm of Science, and needs to be returned to the aberrational religions and philosphies shelf.

To Here,

creationism.
creationism.
creationism.

This is the antagonistic evolutionist's term for anything the Bible contradicts in their search for evolutionary justification. They must separate the weaker in Christian understanding from the creation conflicts the evolutionists confront. It's the only way they can follow along with their mother religion's (humanism's) one world philosophy and, in the process, water down the Word of God by watering down Its followers.

Then To Here,

And that evolution is a religion?
And in doing so you have offended many theistic evolutionists such as myself.

At which point i got curious just what we're talking about and decided to look up theistic evolutionist starting here, which left me just sane enough to question if any of us even knows what we're talking about when we're so quick to attach labels to ourselves and, at the same time, seriously question which and to what extent all these categories are exclusive to Christianity. Just because someone says they are a (fill in the blank) does not, of necessity, mean that is, in fact, what they are or that they are, in fact, an Holy Spirit indwelt Christian.

which, best i can remember, bought us up and on to here, but by then I had bumped into the Timothy Test which paraphrased the heart of the herein subject matter very nicely and would be shorting the conversation if it were skipped.

From there we looked a little further and found an interesting definition of Creationism and it leaves me feeling like there is no difference between "creationism" and "evolutionism", rather, it is

• just the same thing looking at it from differing angles
• BUT STILL IN AGREEMENT,
• stated in frictionless politically correct terms, questionably utilized, and that's
• without any inherent 'Christian' inference observed!

In any event, it went from there and then here, and, now, finally, we're here, where it seems ISM's are opposed to Scripture for

• the labels are in themselves no guarantee of which god, if any.
• nor is there an obvious proclamation of specificity of exclusive inclusion of Jesus Christ in one's life which raises the question
• to what degree the ISM's hold superceding residence in the hearts of self-professed evolutionists.

For well over a hundred years now there has been by many an understandable and reasonable concern regarding the eternal well being for all who wear the mantle "evolutionist" and who follow and endorse its teachings so it is by no means a new or recent issue for those who would regard it spiritually imprudent not to question and point out perceived deceptions lest they become real dangers.

"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"-Hebrews 10:23

(Hopefully, all the links and pages are right!) :o

 

[Pilgrim 33]

The danger is that it can turn into sin when some are willing to lie just to be right. It can also push people away once they realize they have been lied too.

Something all controversial disciplines are acutely aware of.

 

[Jet Black]

Something all controversial disciplines are acutely aware of.

so it makes you wonder why AiG and co persist in their lies then really.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

AiG and co .

please, explain.

 

[Jet Black]

well just look around. This forum is replete with examples of how AIG and other Creation Science ministries (I will be charitable and not include Hovind, since his claims are so far removed from science as to be a parody of landover baptist-esque proportions)

I will give just two which come quickly to mind.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i3/whale_leg.asp

this is about atavistic hind limbs (not vestigial, those are different) and when we analyse the first picture, we see a whale with a clear spinal disease, and then they go on to claim that this is the evidence for atavistic whale hindlimbs.

talkorigins on the other hand do make clear the evidence:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms_ex1

and here is a more in depth review of the AIG article.

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/whales/whale-leg.html

one has to ask why AIG so clearly avoided the evidence and showed a whale with a disease, which had nothing to do with the original claims of atavistic whale hindlimbs. Even now, when pressed, Jonathan Sarfati will just refer to the AIG article and make claims of bones "a few centimetres long" even when presented directly with the proper evidence in the public domain. Why is this? why do they continue to push their own site which contains misrepresentations of the evidence and refuse to address the correct evidence. I can only assume deception, as the odds of them genuinely never having seen the evidence seems incredibly slim. Make of these articles what you will, I would be interested in a discussion, even if we do not directly address the evidence.

Another example is the following thread, where Humphreys cherry picks a graph, and alters it:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=10735745&postcount=11

by compressing the horizontal axes, ignoring data, and pushing the vertical axis to that it appears that the data shows reversals when it doesn't. Again this is highly suspicious, why did he do that and claim that the data support his argument when clearly they do not.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

AiG and co .

please, explain

http://www.answersingenesis.org

I assume that means some site called answers in genesis.
thank you.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Young Earth vs Old Earth does not appear to be a salvation issue

That's what makes all this so much fun. As long as each of us is secure in our salvation, in The message of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then all the rest of it is just history, customs, traditions and our "guessticulations" about what coulda been and what could be, even what is, and it's all just a lot of fun along the way as time passes us by.

The danger is that it can turn into sin when some are willing to lie just to be right. It can also push people away once they realize they have been lied too.

Something all controversial disciplines are acutely aware of.

so it makes you wonder why AiG and co persist in their lies then really.

all sides are equally susceptible. all sides are equally guilty.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

-Romans 3:23

 

[Jet Black]

I assume that means some site called answers in genesis.
thank you.

if you made your question less vague, I might not have wasted my time writing that reply.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

if you made your question less vague, I might not have wasted my time writing that reply.

i knew where, just needed to know how it fit in, see my reply above. thanks

 

[Jet Black]

i knew where, just needed to know how it fit in, see my reply above. thanks

very nice, but then why do they do it? and why do they refuse to correct their errors? Ultimately the correction of error is at the core of the scientific method. AiG and other groups claim to be performing science, and yet they clearly ignore this fundamental tenet of error correction and instead continue to purvey falsehoods. saying "well we all do it" is no real defence of their arguments - they should be more careful.

 

[xjonx]

THE CREATION GOSPEL
1. Adam chose against God
2. God is life, thus Adam chose death
3. Jesus died for Adam's wrong choice
4. Adam confesses his mistake, accepts Jesus' sacrifice, and goes to heaven

GENESIS 1:2-4
The earth was without form and void.
The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
God said "Let there be light", and God saw the light that it was good.

THE SAME THING
The whole of the Bible points to Jesus, how we are diseased with sin, and how the only cure is Jesus Christ--- always. Even the Creation story can be seen as a parable of good coming from evil, like God changes us. The only way anything good can be done through us is by God's hand, by His power.

xjonx

 

[Rat_bytes]

Hmmmm, so Jesus died to correct a rule for God that he made himself? Brings to mind not the age old question "could god build a wall even god could not knock down", but rather "could god create a rule even god could not break?"

It all sounds very beauracratic to me.



By the way, this spell check sucks. I have a feeling I misspelled beauracratic, but it doesn't seem to know what the hell I'm talking about. Henceforth, instead of calling someone a beauracrat, I am to call them either a beautician, a bearer, or a beauregard. Pathetic.

 

[Jet Black]

bureaucratic. when one gets a word too wrong, even the spell checker can't fix it. anyway, thanks for giving me a brilliant way to develop a clever spell checker