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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

Tayla

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life. The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient. But if something unproven and unseen is the cause, why object when people claim that God intervenes (which is also unprovable)?

I should mention: I believe in evolution. If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.
 
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Speedwell

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life. The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient. But if something unproven and unseen is the cause, why object when people claim that God intervenes (which is also unprovable)?

I should mention: I believe in evolution. If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.
It would be interesting to know where you got such a bogus answer.

to start with, look closely at the name of the theory: The theory of evolution by random variation and Natural Selection--not random mutation and natural selection.
Evolution proceeds by randomly distributed variation of the phenotype acted on by natural selection. Each new generation of a species population presents a range of variants to the environment for selection. Randomly arriving mutations play a role in creating this distribution but are not the sole cause.

You seem to be under the impression that the phenotyes of the individual members of the population stay the same until a random mutation comes along. You are right to be suspicious of such nonesense.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life. The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient. But if something unproven and unseen is the cause, why object when people claim that God intervenes (which is also unprovable)?

I should mention: I believe in evolution. If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.

The genetic record allows us to trace the history of evolution. We can look into the evolution of various structures through the genes that code for them. Hence, the process is far from something 'unseen'.

Genetic variability/variation is something which is easily observed in the current world. So again, 'unseen' is an inaccurate description of it. You need to understand the difference between the fact of evolution and the theory of evolution.

Science does not work by 'proof'. So, to say that something is 'unproven' is meaningless. What science does is develop hypotheses that match the real world. In some cases these hypotheses are so well supported that we can have full confidence that they are correct. E.g. that the world is approximately spherical, that the Earth orbits the sun, and that evolution has occurred.

That you are 'unconvinced' by something does not argue against it unless you are able to produce an argument not based on ignorance. How well do you understand the Theory of Evolution? The evidence of your posts in this forum suggests that you don't understand it at all.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life. The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient.
...
If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.
Your logic is faulty - the fact that you are unconvinced by it doesn't mean that it's impossible.

Perhaps you just haven't examined the mathematics closely enough - here's a paper describing a plausible route for the evolution of a camera-style eye (like a mammalian eye) from a simple light-sensitive patch; it uses very conservative parameters and calculates how many generations it would take: A Pessimistic Estimate of the Time Required for an Eye to Evolve.

Have a read of it and let me know what parts, if any, you find unconvincing.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible
Demonstrably false statement.

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life.

Great. The validity of scientific theories, don't depend on you understanding them, though.

The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient.

Huh? That doesn't seem to make any sense. What probability?
What is your point?

But if something unproven and unseen is the cause, why object when people claim that God intervenes (which is also unprovable)?

Biology/evolution is not "unseen" nore is it "unproven".

Every single aspect of the process of evolution demonstrably happens.
I agree though, that your "god interventions" are completely unsupportable, "unseen" and "unproven".

I should mention: I believe in evolution.

Owkay. Strange though.

If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.

Random mutations ALONE, is not sufficient.
But evolution theory is a lot more then mere random mutations.

Natural selection, sexual selection,....
That's the part that makes evolution non-random.
 
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xianghua

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life. The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient. But if something unproven and unseen is the cause, why object when people claim that God intervenes (which is also unprovable)?

I should mention: I believe in evolution. If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.
a natural evolution is probably impossible for two reasons:

1) we have evidence for design in nature (you can see one of them in my signature link)

2) a molecule (or a bacteria) cant evolve stepwise into a creature since there are no small steps from a self replicating molecule to a creature. think about this analogy: if we had a self replicating matter. can it evolve into a robot by millions of years?
 
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DogmaHunter

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a natural evolution is probably impossible for two reasons:

1) we have evidence for design in nature (you can see one of them in my signature link like a spinning motor found in bacteria)

2) a molecule (or a bacteria) cant evolve stepwise into a creature since there are no small steps from a self replicating molecule to a creature. think about this analogy: if we had a self replicating matter. can it evolve into a robot by millions of years?

1. we do not

2. robots aren't living biological organism and thus aren't subject to biological processes



Still stuck in that same invalid thinking, i see.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I should mention: I believe in evolution. If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.

This is great. This means you are a theistic evolutionist. If I understand you correctly, you think that the gods picked and chose some or all of the mutations that ever happened in order for things to turn out the way they did.

However, to reject the 'undirected random mutation' hypothesis, you would have to show that the mutations were nonrandom. Your stated objection 'The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient' maybe needs some more explanation.

One error to avoid is the sharpshooter fallacy. I mean, think of your own genetic code. Every person alive has a more or less unique set of DNA that's vanishingly unlikely, but it's a random mix of parents' genes and 100 random mutations. Before it happens, the odds of you being born is vanishingly small. But there's nothing mysterious about it happening in a random fashion.

There are more ways of 10 Powerball drawings happening than there are particles in the observable universe. But it's just some bouncing pingpong balls. You can bet that if there was something nonrandom about it, people would make a lot of money.

So I have no need to forbid you from adding gods to the formula. But they appear to be unnecessary.
 
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Speedwell

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a natural evolution is probably impossible for two reasons:

1) we have evidence for design in nature (you can see one of them in my signature link like a spinning motor found in bacteria)
No we don't. There is no evidence for design in nature. There is functional complexity in nature but functional complexity is not evidence of design.

2) a molecule (or a bacteria) cant evolve stepwise into a creature since there are no small steps from a self replicating molecule to a creature.
How do you know that?
 
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TLK Valentine

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life. The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient. But if something unproven and unseen is the cause, why object when people claim that God intervenes (which is also unprovable)?

I should mention: I believe in evolution. If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.

You're basically describing theistic evolution. It's certainly plausible that God operated (and continues to operate) behind the scenes with such perfect subtlety that His handiwork might appear random. This is, of course, unproveable and untestable -- if God doesn't want to be found, He won't be found -- which makes it, ultimately, irrelevant. A god who behaves indistinguishably from random chance is, for all intents and purposes, no different from random chance itself, with no God at all.

But if you want to say that God is indeed working behind the scenes and take it as a matter of faith, that's no problem.
 
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HitchSlap

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life. The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient. But if something unproven and unseen is the cause, why object when people claim that God intervenes (which is also unprovable)?

I should mention: I believe in evolution. If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.
It’s obvious your objection to ToE is an emotional one, would you mind telling us why?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life. The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient. But if something unproven and unseen is the cause, why object when people claim that God intervenes (which is also unprovable)?

I should mention: I believe in evolution. If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.

You shouldn't believe.

Asian mates with Asian and produces only Asian. African mates with African and produces only African. Only when Asian mates with African is variation (Afro-Asian) seen in the species. Neither the Asian nor the African evolve into the Afro-Asian by mutation or any other method. The Asian remains Asian, the African remains African. This can be observed with every single species. And such is why every single fossil ever observed remains the same from the oldest found to the youngest found.

Even the Grants had to finally admit this after studying actual changes in animals.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277516740_Grant_PR_Grant_BR_Phenotypic_and_genetic_effects_of_hybridization_on_Darwin's_finches_Evolution_48_297-316

"New additive genetic variance introduced by hybridization is estimated to be two to three orders of magnitude greater than that introduced by mutation."

So why would you accept a fantasized claim of mutations and millions of years, when you can see that variance happening when two subspecies mate, right before your eyes?
 
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DogmaHunter

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You shouldn't believe.

Asian mates with Asian and produces only Asian. African mates with African and produces only African. Only when Asian mates with African is variation (Afro-Asian) seen in the species. Neither the Asian nor the African evolve into the Afro-Asian by mutation or any other method. The Asian remains Asian, the African remains African. This can be observed with every single species. And such is why every single fossil ever observed remains the same from the oldest found to the youngest found.

Assuming humanity started with just 2 people....

How did the various "races" (asian, white caucasian, black african, american-indian, ...) of humans arise?

"New additive genetic variance introduced by hybridization is estimated to be two to three orders of magnitude greater than that introduced by mutation."

So why would you accept a fantasized claim of mutations and millions of years, when you can see that variance happening when two subspecies mate, right before your eyes?

The answer to your question, is right in the quote you posted. I highlighted the relevant bits.

It means that if given enough time for mutations to accumulate, it will introduce the same levels of additive genetic variance.

Also, your phrasing of "Even the Grants had to finally admit this...", is dishonest at best.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Assuming humanity started with just 2 people....

How did the various "races" (asian, white caucasian, black african, american-indian, ...) of humans arise?

Ask yourself why the human genome is now less-functional than what it once was?

So if something is now less, it must have once been more, correct? You cant get less unless you start with more.


The answer to your question, is right in the quote you posted. I highlighted the relevant bits.

It means that if given enough time for mutations to accumulate, it will introduce the same levels of additive genetic variance.

Also, your phrasing of "Even the Grants had to finally admit this...", is dishonest at best.

Ahhh, so if we wait a million years we can finally observe this fabled process, while I can see it happeining in my life-time over and over and over when two subspecies mate?

So lets see, you want me to ignore observation in favor of something never once observed and will take supposedly millions of years when I can see it happening (in nine months for humans), and so can you btw if you open your eyes.....

But I see your blind to reality and choose instead to ignore it for something you have never once observed and takes supposedly millions of years.

"It means that if given enough time for mutations to accumulate, it will introduce the same levels of additive genetic variance."

Says who? People that have never seen this occur and are just wishful dreaming because they don't want to abandon their dead theory and face reality?

Actual tests with animal and plant husbandry seem to contradict that belief.

http://www.weloennig.de/Loennig-Long-Version-of-Law-of-Recurrent-Variation.pdf

"Perhaps the most important generalization on the basis of the total outcome of mutation breeding will be termed “the law of recurrent variation”. It states that “treating homozygous lines with mutagenic agents generates large, but clearly finite, spectra of mutants."

For the layman, this means the same forms were observed to occur over and over again, exhausting the change and producing nothing new. (Perhaps that's why they have practically abandoned mutation in plant and animal husbandry?) Unlike what we actually observe in real life with interbreeding. No, the theory of mutation being responsible for the wide variation is dead, as soon as you let it die and stop wishing for that million year change you can never observe..... and will never because it isnt what is responsible for the variation.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Ask yourself why the human genome is now less-functional than what it once was?

What a loaded question.
Perhaps, first demonstrate that that is the case.

Ahhh, so if we wait a million years we can finally observe this fabled process, while I can see it happeining in my life-time over and over and over when two subspecies mate?

It's right there in the quote that you yourself posted.
It doesn't say that mere mutation does NOT add such variance.
It just says that it goes slower.

So it logically follows that it can accomplish the same thing.

It's like saying that "running" consists of large steps, as opposed to only taking steps of 1inch at a time.

However, given enough time, taking one step at a time can cover the same distance.

So lets see, you want me to ignore observation

No. I just want you to be intellectually honest and the quotes you yourself are posting.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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What a loaded question.
Perhaps, first demonstrate that that is the case.

Are you claiming to be unaware that the human genome is less functional over time because of damaging mutations? Or are you claiming almost all mutations that are not neutral are not damaging?


It's right there in the quote that you yourself posted.
It doesn't say that mere mutation does NOT add such variance.
It just says that it goes slower.

And yet this is just hypothesis, not actual observational data.

So it logically follows that it can accomplish the same thing.
No, it doesn't logically follow, when such has never been observed. It may logically follow in fantasy land, but not in reality.

It's like saying that "running" consists of large steps, as opposed to only taking steps of 1inch at a time.
i do believe that if you took 1 inch steps, under the definition of running, you would not meet it.

However, given enough time, taking one step at a time can cover the same distance.
Except that during that time 10,000 disasters happen (deleterious mutations) and so your dead before you get there.

New Research Suggests at Least 75% of The Human Genome Is Junk DNA After All

"The rationale for Graur's model is based on the way mutations creep into DNA, and how as a species we weed these mutations out for the benefit of all.

These kinds of genetic variants, called deleterious mutations, appear in our genome over time, subtly shifting or reordering the four chemical bases that make up DNA – adenine, cytosine, guanine and thymine – in parts of our genetic code.

When mutations take place in junk DNA, they're considered neutral – since that genetic code doesn't do anything, anyway – but when mutations occur to our functional, defining DNA, they can often be harmful and even ultimately lethal, as they mess up the instructions that code for healthy tissue and biological processes.

On that basis, it's better for our evolutionary prospects if less of our DNA is functional, because less of it is then exposed to the risk of mutation and the increased chances of early death it invites."

But you want the exact opposite to be true, and to increase the chances of survival, when fact dictates the opposite. The more mutations occur over time, the more chances the species will die out due to damaging mutations.

No. I just want you to be intellectually honest and the quotes you yourself are posting.
Then why are you not being intellectually honest and keep insisting something never observed is more important than what you observe? Why be intellectually dishonest and rely on unproven theory over what you see happening all around you?

How is admitting someones claim of mutations over millions of years causing variations when it has never been observed being unimportant being dishonest? Wouldn't it be more honest to just admit it has never been observed (unlike interbreeding causing change)?

So you want me to lie to myself and ignore how we actually observe variation to occur and instead accept an unproven method that can never be observed and is known to cause serious harm to an organism over time?

Mutation - Wikipedia

"One study on genetic variations between different species of Drosophila suggests that, if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, the result is likely to be harmful, with an estimated 70 percent of amino acid polymorphisms that have damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or marginally beneficial. Due to the damaging effects that mutations can have on genes, organisms have mechanisms such as DNA repair to prevent or correct mutations by reverting the mutated sequence back to its original state."

Hmm, a built in correction routine to repair those mutations you want to be the cause of everything. Imagine that.
 
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Heissonear

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

I am unconvinced by explanations of how random mutations operating with natural selection can account for the complexity of chemical biological life. The basic answer I encounter is that calculating the probability is too complex, and so it is merely assumed that randomness was sufficient. But if something unproven and unseen is the cause, why object when people claim that God intervenes (which is also unprovable)?

I should mention: I believe in evolution. If it can be demonstrated that random mutations is sufficient, I will wholehearted accept it.
I like your thread. But do not accept the possibility of evolution, after extensive investigation. Evolution never happened.
 
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Maxwell511

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Evolution via random mutations is impossible

Can God created a universe where "Evolution via random mutations is POSSIBLE"?

Please consider this question. It will help you understand the difference between epistemological methods of science and faith. If you continue with the attitude you are having you will believe that science can disprove your faith. That is not the case, excluding ridiculous ideas such as the Earth being 6000 years old is an article of faith. Though those YEC people are making the same error you are.
 
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Ophiolite

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I like your thread. But do not accept the possibility of evolution, after extensive investigation. Evolution never happened.
A shame really. That means your punctuation can never evolve to something recognisable as Standard English. :)
 
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