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Evolution - Speciation finally observed in the wild?

DogmaHunter

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There ya go! And since this is true, JTS's real issue and point made is supported. No evidence that any type of creature evolved into another type. Cats into additional types of cats yes...but fish into amphibians or apes into humans? NO!


Ow boy....


Cats, tigers, lions, ... = felines.
Humans, chimps, gorilla's,... = primates

The ancestor of humans and chimps was a primate.
This primate produced more primates: humans and chimps.

The ancestor cats, tigers, etc was a feline.
This feline produced more felines: cats, tigers, lions,...

Felines, canines, primates,... = mammals.

The ancestor of felines, primates, etc was a mammal.
This mammal produced more mammals: felines, primates, canines, etc

Reptiles, amphibians, mammals = vertebrates.

The ancestor of reptiles, amphibians, mammals was a vertebrate.
This vertebrate produced more vertebrates: reptiles, amphibians, mammals, etc


Once more: speciation is a vertical process.
Felines do not produce canines.
Felines produce more felines.

Primates do not produce felines.
Primtes produce more primates.

Mammals produce more mammals.
Vertebrates produce more vertebrates.


At no point in our evolutionary history did one "type" become another "type", nore is it required.



So this seems to be yet another case of a creationist trying to argue against a theory that he does not understand.

I'll just leave this diagram here and let you ponder the implications:

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/17/6/760/F1.large.jpg
 
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DogmaHunter

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so an object that its identical to a robot (a "robot" that evolved by a natural process) isnt a robot?


A "robot" that is the result of a natural evolutionary process, would not be identical to an actual robot that is manufactured in a factory.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Quite true, but the observation itself doesn’t tell us if it happened by random events, or if set deliberately. So superficial observations can only take us so far.

Well, actually..................................

There are entire departments dedicated to doing exactly that: examining evidence like depicted in the picture, to find out the cause of the fire - without having any eyewitnesses whatsoever.

It's kind of important to find out if it was an accident or a crime, for insurance and justice and stuff.

Did you even think this through?

Easily proven. Have you seen wolves change into a dog breed in the last several thousand years without mans interference?

Didn't you just acknowledge in a previous post that dogs are descendants of wolves?

So we can conclude if left on their own without interfering the creation of different forms would take an unknown amount of time.


But clearly it would happen, since you acknowledge that dogs are descendants from wolves. Who aren't dogs.

But inherently there is no difference between man mating a Husky and a Mastiff to get a Chinook or famine bringing the two together creating a Chinook. The only difference would be geological time.

Not sure what famine has to do with it, but clearly you seem to be agreeing that natural selection is perfectly capable of producing new species.

Yes, artificial selection makes changes develop much faster. For obvious reasons, I might add.

Why, because you don’t want to accept that he allowed for a falsification of his theory when the required innumerable intermediaries were not found in the future?

No. Rather because it is 200 year old knowledge and we've learned a thing or two since then.

I just don't see the point to use outdated versions of any scientific idea to try and argue against the modern version.

It's like using newtonian physics to argue against relativity. Seems quite pointless.


I don't know the first thing about finches or how they are classified.
And as a non-biologist I am not arrogant enough to tell professional biologists how they should do their jobs....

Yes we did. We learned those finches were never reproductively isolated and so speciation never happened.

Uhu. Ok.

Call me when you bring this up in the scientific community and succeed in getting your paper published.

Ow, that's right.... you can't do that. Sorry, I forgot all about the massive conspiracy theory the size of which the world has never seen, ecompassing millions of biologists all over the world stretching over multiple generations going all the way back to the head conspirator named Charles Darwin.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I agree! And that doesn't mean mutation does not play a role in producing variety just that it is not a major hinge pin (or THE cause) and certainly does not prove the transformations they suggest.
And what I find so surprising is they understand interbreeding brought about every variety of dog we see, brought about every variety of finch we see, brought about every variety we see.

And then can’t seem to understand how it could bring about variety in humans.

So wedded are they to their belief that it must be mutations from a common ancestor shared with apes, they can’t understand why all their common ancestors are missing.

They seem to understand the non-missing common ancestors, like wolves, produced great variety, and even that they all still remain the same species. Then can’t seem to accept that mans common ancestor simply led to the same, but lesser variety in humans. There was never a shared ancestor with apes, that’s why it’s missing. Lesser variety because we only tend to selectively breed with others like us (Asian with Asian, African with African, Latino with Latino). Had we done the same thing with wolves, we would like human races, have only a few breeds, and they would be almost similar to one another.

No, reasoning is beyond the scope of their conditioning in which only their high priests of evolution can tell them what to believe, which they follow fanatically. Just as bad as fanatics in Christendom. All they can do is follow what their high priests tell them to believe.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Maybe you should study biology sometime.

Evolution: Library: Evolution of the Dog

So, do you accept what that link is talking about?

Because it says dogs evolved from wolves.


So, did dogs evolve from wolves?
 
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tyke

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Justa, would you kindly answer the question that you have been asked quite a few times in this thread? Namely - how did we get the original Asian and African races from if there were only two original on this planet people with "perfect genomes" from the Middle East.

A perfectly valid question that you need to answer if your argument has anything to it.
 
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Jimmy D

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I agree! And that doesn't mean mutation does not play a role in producing variety just that it is not a major hinge pin (or THE cause) and certainly does not prove the transformations they suggest.

So what else plays a role in causing variety? What is the major hinge?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Thouroughly, which is why I am two steps ahead.

So if the investigator believes the fire was accidental, then during research, finds an accelerant, he revised his beliefs, yes? Or does if he’s worth listening to.

So when Darwin classified finches based on the belief they were reproductively isolated, and then during research we find out they never were, why does no one then revise their beliefs?


Didn't you just acknowledge in a previous post that dogs are descendants of wolves?
In every post dogs are mentioned. Yet no natural disaster has forced wolves of differing breeds together, forcing internal change through interbreeding. They are not actively selecting for traits. Any changes that occurr will take hundreds of thousands of years if not millions, unless some natural event occurs to force them to select for a specific trait. Such as thinner fur if forced to warmer climates due to a natural disaster rendering their habitat inhabitable.

But clearly it would happen, since you acknowledge that dogs are descendants from wolves. Who aren't dogs.
Yes, but over a longer period of time, which then evolutionists see these changes in form and from their pre-conceived starting point assume separate species. Dogs are simply an accelerated process caused by man.


Not sure what famine has to do with it, but clearly you seem to be agreeing that natural selection is perfectly capable of producing new species.
All animals are territorial, including man. Famine in one area forces animals that would not necessarily come into contact to do so. It doesn’t have to be famine, it can be a volcanic eruption, drought, floods, etc.

Natural selection is itself incapable of doing anything until it causes groups not normally close to interbreed. As the Grants correctly concluded. It was the interbreeding of those finches that caused change, interbreeding brought about from change in food sources, habitat, etc, your natural selection.

Yes, artificial selection makes changes develop much faster. For obvious reasons, I might add.
So for obvious reasons natural selection makes changes develop much slower. I might add. So if left to natural causes those changes we caused on wolves will take much, much longer. And in the end will still be of the same species.


No. Rather because it is 200 year old knowledge and we've learned a thing or two since then.
Yes, we learned interbreeding is 2 to 3 magnitudes more important than mutations. We learned finches were never reproductively isolated. We should have learned they are still the same species, but apparently they haven’t yet.

I just don't see the point to use outdated versions of any scientific idea to try and argue against the modern version.
The versions are the same, change over time. The incorrect theory to begin with makes you see Speciation where it doesn’t exist. You think those slow changes over time mean new species, but we go back to wolves and understand through accelerated processes, they are not. And such is why dogs common ancestors can be found, but no common ancestor where assumed splits occurred can be.

It's like using newtonian physics to argue against relativity. Seems quite pointless.
And yet relativity reduces to Newtonian physics. And neither one can explain anything beyond the solar system without adding 96% ad-hoc theory to a theory 99% correct in the solar system without those ad-hoc theories. Basically throwing in common ancestors that can’t be found....


I don't know the first thing about finches or how they are classified.
And as a non-biologist I am not arrogant enough to tell professional biologists how they should do their jobs....
They are mating in front of their noses, I’m sure you can comprehend what subspecies are, or must your high priests tell you always what to believe and think?

Uhu. Ok.

Call me when you bring this up in the scientific community and succeed in getting your paper published.
Seems experts got lots of papers published on Colacanth and were wrong.... lots of papers published on how stars form. Every one was falsified by observation on the last 20 years. Lots of papers were published about how the solar wind would veer sideways at the heliopause. Zilch.... Every few years all those published papers once assumed as fact, suddenly are not. But hey Darwin published some papers, but you don’t want to consider those.....

No more of a conspiracy than Ptolomey believing sincerely the earth was the center of the solar system. Oh I believe they sincerely believe in what they say. Just like Ptolomey and his entire generation sincerely believed. Didn’t make it a conspiracy, just wrong beliefs.

The conspiracy exists only in your own mind, it helps you to dismiss evidence you don’t want to see.
 
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Jimmy D

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How do African wild dog species, coyotes etc fit into your "wolf kind" family tree?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Thouroughly, which is why I am two steps ahead.

So if the investigator believes the fire was accidental, then during research, finds an accelerant, he revised his beliefs, yes? Or does if he’s worth listening to.

Indeed. So then, do you retract your claim that we can't use evidence of the present to determine events that happened in the past?

Or did you forget that that was the point of the fire analogy?

So when Darwin classified finches based on the belief they were reproductively isolated, and then during research we find out they never were, why does no one then revise their beliefs?

So far I, have only your assertion about this. And from past experience, I know that it's generally a bad idea to just accept your baseless assertions at face value.

So this is the point where you support this claim of yours with actual data and evidence.

In every post dogs are mentioned.

Then why are you asking if wolves evolved into dogs the past couple thousand years?
Since you accept they did...


The amount of misconceptions in this post his disturbing, especially considering that you feel qualified to talk about these subjects.

In reality, no "natural disasters" are required for selection pressures to change.
Selection pressures change whenever the overall environment, the habitat, changes.
These changes can be subtle or they can be rather big. The bigger they are, by the way, the more chances of actually going extinct. Very sudden big changes can potentially upset eco-systems to such a degree that species don't have enough time to properly adapt to the new reality.

The current consensus is that the evolution of dogs goes hand in hand with the rise of humans. Human populations migrating tend to have quite some impact on the habitat they leave behind as well as the habitat they move into.

Yes, but over a longer period of time

DNA and fossil evidence suggests that it happened during the past several 10 thousand years.

What is your beef with that?

, which then evolutionists see these changes in form and from their pre-conceived starting point assume separate species. Dogs are simply an accelerated process caused by man.

The breeds of dogs, sure. They are breed in artificial selection programs.
How about the original dogs, that evolved from wolves?

All animals are territorial, including man. Famine in one area forces animals that would not necessarily come into contact to do so. It doesn’t have to be famine, it can be a volcanic eruption, drought, floods, etc.

Or just migration, a change in diet, the slow and steady formation of a river, climate patterns, increased solar activity,.......

We find ourselves in an ever-changing environment, which in turn plays a big role in selection pressures. Change doesn't need to be dramatic.

Natural selection is itself incapable of doing anything until it causes groups not normally close to interbreed.

Like the wolves that produced dogs?
Ow, wait.....

So for obvious reasons natural selection makes changes develop much slower. I might add.

No. Natural selection, would be the natural rate. Not the "slower" rate - whatever that means.

It's artificial selection that makes it speed up, in function of the trait that is being artificially selected. It's because there, you can change the selection parameters at will and literally create new ones. In nature, it doesn't quite happen that way. It can go quick, it can go slow. There's nobody arbitrarily deciding what comes next.

So if left to natural causes those changes we caused on wolves will take much, much longer.

How did "we" cause changes on wolves?

And in the end will still be of the same species.
I'm pretty sure that dogs and wolves aren't the same species............

Yes, we learned interbreeding is 2 to 3 magnitudes more important than mutations.

Kind of like how wolves interbreed with...... wolves, to produce dogs?

The versions are the same, change over time.

So.... there are more then 200.000 scientific papers dealing with biological evolution. Do you think that "change over time" is the only thing they state?

I'm pretty sure that these papers go into a bit more detail.

The incorrect theory to begin with

Except, apparantly, when it comes to the origins of dogs and how they evolved from interbreeding wolves.

makes you see Speciation where it doesn’t exist.

But you agree that dogs, a species, evolved from wolves, another species?

You think those slow changes over time mean new species, but we go back to wolves and understand through accelerated processes, they are not.

So dogs didn't evolve from wolves?

You really need to start making up your mind.

And such is why dogs common ancestors can be found, but no common ancestor where assumed splits occurred can be.

What? No idea what you are saying here....
It seems like you don't know yourself what it is exactly that you accept concerning the origin of dogs.

And yet relativity reduces to Newtonian physics

It doesn't. Which is why it took an Einstein to come up with it and why Newton failed where Einstein succeeded.

And neither one can explain anything beyond the solar system without adding 96% ad-hoc theory to a theory 99% correct in the solar system without those ad-hoc theories.

Ow dear, not that again.......................................

Basically throwing in common ancestors that can’t be found....

Uhu, uhu.


I forgot how intellectually dishonest you were, I guess.

Bye.
 
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tas8831

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Yes, we learned interbreeding is 2 to 3 magnitudes more important than mutations.

That sounds like a verifiable claim - source please.

But you are still ignoring the obvious - how did the creatures doing the interbreeding aris in the first place?



If you tribal fantasies are correct, and Jehovah created a single breeding pair (or 7 pair if you are 'clean') Kind, then HOW do we get ANY variation at all from which to hybridize?


Why do you keep ignoring this?
 
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Speedwell

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Why does a self proclaimed atheist come to a Christian forum? What are you seeking?
For the same reason non-creationist Christians come to this forum along with persons of other faiths. The issue is not atheism versus theism, it's a Protestant minority with a political agenda versus everybody else, theist and atheist alike.
 
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tas8831

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Why does a self proclaimed atheist come to a Christian forum? What are you seeking?

This is the Creation & Evolution forum in the Physical & Life Sciences section of a Christian-run website.

Given the sorts of information promulgated by those professing to be the most Christian on here, you should welcome outside voices.
 
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AV1611VET

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Why does a self proclaimed atheist come to a Christian forum? What are you seeking?
They're drawn here.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
 
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tyke

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Why does a self proclaimed atheist come to a Christian forum?

I live in the UK so have never come across fundamentalist evolution deniers. I find the views expressed here and the reasons given for the denial to be very interesting and entertaining. I have no intention of even trying to change anyone's views or beliefs (as if I could anyway).
 
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Ancient of Days

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This is the Creation & Evolution forum in the Physical & Life Sciences section of a Christian-run website.

Given the sorts of information promulgated by those professing to be the most Christian on here, you should welcome outside voices.

Where did I say anyone was not welcome? I just asked a question I was seeking an answer to. No reason to be pugilistic.
 
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tas8831

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Where did I say anyone was not welcome?
I did not indicate that you had. Yet, asking why certain people are here seems to imply that you don't think they should be. To me.
I just asked a question I was seeking an answer to.
And you got answers.
 
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