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evolution question

Dr GS Hurd

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LOL! So exactly what are YOUR credentials to question the Ph.D in his respective field that's published and also cited in secular work? I can't WAIT to hear this!

I earned my U. Cal. doctorate in 1976. My first research fellowship was as an undergrad in nuclear geochemistry. So was my
second. My third research fellowship was in nuclear geochemistry in graduate school. Just to break the pattern, my 1976 doctorate was in anthropology, my first industry job was as an analytical polymer chemist, and my first professorship was in medicine. One of the more popular seminars I led was on statistical analysis. I of course published in psychiatry. I also have publications in math models and topology (graph theory). I have published in geochemistry, and biology.

Most of my later science work was oriented to archaeology. I particularly enjoyed engaging students in active research programs. Dozens of my undergraduate, graduate, and post graduate students were first published as my co-authors.

Edited to add; I am also an expert in forensic taphonomy certified to give evidence in capital trials. I retired a few years ago, and now only give invited lectures. My book chapter in the 2004 "Why Intelligent Design Fails" was used in the famous Dover v Kitzmiller creationism trial in 2005.

Over to you big guy.
 
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JonFromMinnesota

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It's quite simple. Secularists have declared war on religion.

Define war on religion. If you mean they're keeping it out of public schools and off public property, that is just fighting for the first amendment.

It's not enough that they feel pressured to defend their evolutionary science.

Established science will be defended.

If you silence the enemy (Creationists/ID theorists) through censorship and dragging them to court using the ACLU, then you can better conduct your war and complete your mission.

Creationism and ID are the same thing. This was concluded in court. It is not science and it was proven in court on several occasions that it is not science. If you want it in the classroom, then you must subject it to the peer review process that all science is required to go through. Creationism loses every time. The mission is complete. It's the creationists who want to continue fighting it, even though they KNOW they will lose. They are wasting time and money.

In this case the mission is to spread the lie that molecule-to-man evolution is a FACT and there is no God.

Evolution is not a lie. It is established science with an overwhelming amount of evidence. It does NOT state that there is no God. In fact, Kenneth Miller, a cell biologist and a Christian was a witness AGAINST ID in the Kitzmiller vs Dover case.
 
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Armoured

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Source? It should be noted that Louis Pasteur also debunked Evolution in 1864...before it was cool. The Father of micro-biology PROVED life must come from life. He revealed this through scientific observation by the way.
Um... Doesn't that disprove the Bible, too?
 
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Armoured

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It's quite simple. Secularists have declared war on religion. It's not enough that they feel pressured to defend their evolutionary science. They now have to attack religion and those who carry their faith on their sleeve.

As a prior serviceman, I know all too well how invaluable communications nodes are to the enemy. You can't fight a war in disarray and without the capability of organizing an army or giving orders to the troops. This religious war is a lot like that. If you silence the enemy (Creationists/ID theorists) through censorship and dragging them to court using the ACLU, then you can better conduct your war and complete your mission. In this case the mission is to spread the lie that molecule-to-man evolution is a FACT and there is no God.
Science makes no such claim. As evidenced by all the evolution accepting Christians.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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I earned my U. Cal. doctorate in 1976. My first research fellowship was as an undergrad in nuclear geochemistry. So was my
second. My third research fellowship was in nuclear geochemistry in graduate school. Just to break the pattern, my 1976 doctorate was in anthropology, my first industry job was as an analytical polymer chemist, and my first professorship was in medicine. One of the more popular seminars I led was on statistical analysis. I of course published in psychiatry. I also have publications in math models and topology (graph theory). I have published in geochemistry, and biology.

Most of my later science work was oriented to archaeology. I particularly enjoyed engaging students in active research programs. Dozens of my undergraduate, graduate, and post graduate students were first published as my co-authors.

Edited to add; I am also an expert in forensic taphonomy certified to give evidence in capital trials. I retired a few years ago, and now only give invited lectures. My book chapter in the 2004 "Why Intelligent Design Fails" was used in the famous Dover v Kitzmiller creationism trial in 2005.

Over to you big guy.

Impressive, even though I go to a school that has "BEAT CAL" as its unofficial motto. :D 11/21 - it's gonna happen.
 
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I earned my U. Cal. doctorate in 1976. My first research fellowship was as an undergrad in nuclear geochemistry. So was my
second. My third research fellowship was in nuclear geochemistry in graduate school. Just to break the pattern, my 1976 doctorate was in anthropology, my first industry job was as an analytical polymer chemist, and my first professorship was in medicine. One of the more popular seminars I led was on statistical analysis. I of course published in psychiatry. I also have publications in math models and topology (graph theory). I have published in geochemistry, and biology.

Most of my later science work was oriented to archaeology. I particularly enjoyed engaging students in active research programs. Dozens of my undergraduate, graduate, and post graduate students were first published as my co-authors.

Edited to add; I am also an expert in forensic taphonomy certified to give evidence in capital trials. I retired a few years ago, and now only give invited lectures. My book chapter in the 2004 "Why Intelligent Design Fails" was used in the famous Dover v Kitzmiller creationism trial in 2005.

Over to you big guy.

Never once in all this academic pedigree did you mention that you were a PhD in microbiology. And again, creationism was dragged through the courts to silence creationism. You can lie to yourself and say that this was done to discover the truth, but in reality "The Origins of the Species" is the Bible for evolutionists that still want to be believe there is some sort of scientific advantage to be taken from this absurd book. While Darwin did get microevolution right, because even that can be tested today, science still can't piece together where we came from. How did 250 proteins come together intelligently and with the correct information to produce life? Where did that information come from? Dragged through courts to censor the idea that there may be a God in the universe....a Designer, if I may.

No one here still can answer how it is that Christian scientists today are capable of using their respective scientific fields to make Biblical predictions that turned out to be successful research. They've successfully used their worldview to gain understanding and contribute towards scientific findings. How could they have done that DESPITE the courts ruling out creationism as a viable science?

Further there is a difference between Creationism and Intelligent Design. Even atheists can entertain possible intelligent design without calling themselves religious. Creationism begins with the Bible and says "how can i fit the data into science." Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as a result of intelligence. One example are the sensoreals in the cell that look like tiny turbine engines. Johnathan Wells even worked with a turbine engineer to help with his studies in cancer development. He used engineering principles....intelligence. Or how about Dr. Michael Egnor's approach to his study of the capillaries in the brain? How is it that he used engineering mechanics to understand that capillaries act as dynamic absorbers in the brain...used intelligence to direct his research.
 
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Armoured

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Again, just asking for some equal "air time" in the classrooms. ALL theories should be taught otherwise it's academically dishonest to censor other theories just because secularists believe it's the only one that "makes sense."
No. It's the only one with scientifically demonstrable evidence. Not the same thing. You think ever theory should get equal air time? How about the theory that the Earth is carried through space on the back of four elephants standing on the back of a turtle? How about every single other creation mythology "theory"? Lamarckianism? Lysenkoism? Phlogiston? Planetary epicycles? Radiative ether?

No? Why not?
 
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florida2

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Wow this is simply baffling considering the evidence that proves that science can be carried out using both worldviews for the betterment of science. Further, the same can be said for you. You obviously don't trust in the mathematical physics and mathematics of how great the improbability is that information and thus intelligence came from energy! Just admit it Darwinism/Neo-Darwinism is secular theology.

I have yet to see creationism actually improve science in any way nor make any useful predictions.

I have no idea how or why you leapt to assuming my personal views about science as the post I quoted wasn't about science at all.

Science is all about critical thinking - looking at the theories you have and disregarding those that the evidence don't support. That's how science progresses and why we're not living in the middle ages.

You then add a random comment about probability - not sure why.

Secular as in not connected to religion? Of course it is. I don't see why you want me to 'admit' this. Theology is the study of religion so it can't be both secular and theology.
 
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florida2

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Okay, Komrade! This sort of thinking is exactly opposite of what America stands for. Thank you for solidifying my notion that there is suppression of thought and academic freedom in America. Freedom of Speech or Freedom of Inquiry? What's that?

Actually the sort of thinking I have is all about free thought and free speech. The ability to critically think about your position is essential if you want people to grow up being able to rationally examine the world and not just accept things unquestioningly. Are you saying people shouldn't be able to question the existence of God?

I don't see how the story in the article is anything about suppressing free thought or free speech.

If an individual is unable or scared to think critically about their position they will only have dogmatic beliefs which is not a healthy thing if you want a nation that can actually be grown up and productive.
 
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florida2

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The same reason the ToE myth is taught in schools. Because what passes for science today would make Sir Isaac Newton blush and turn in his grave. Because the scientific establishment can be bought with tax dollars to skew data and spread disinformation faster than can be read by legitimate experts. Because if tax dollars are going to be used to pass out grants for research and keep alive a dead notion of molecule-to-man "science", then the least they can do is at least entertain another "fairy tale" to tell kids in the classrooms. That's why.

It's always hilarious when people get on the conspiracy wagon.

You mention 'tax dollars' - you do realise there are other countries in the world? Are all those other countries part of this conspiracy?

What about all the thousands of scientists scattered all over the world at different universities and institutions? Are they all working together on a conspiracy?

When you start thinking about it the conspiracy idea becomes laughable.

I don't see why you try and drag Newton into this - science has progressed a long long way since his time. One of the greatest mistakes that he made was in his work on planetary orbits. He could explain orbiting bodies pretty well with his calculations but not fully. He then proposed that God must be keeping the planets in line. Fast forward a hundred years and improvements to the science discovered why the planets were kept in orbit through entirely explainable natural phenomena. That he basically gave up and succumbed to the 'God of the gaps' idea shows that science in his day had a long way to go.
 
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RickG

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the conspiracy is quite obvious.
it goes like this (and this is my own thinking)
science is used by workers and university-hermits.
workers pay tax
governments collect tax
schools are funded by government
schools teach science.

Well, you are right about one thing, "its your own thinking", not reality. If scientists were doing science for the money they would not be working at an academic institution, rather they would be working in private industry which pays far far much more. Case in point from experience. I spent most of my professional career (25 + years) as a chemist in private industry. Seven years before retirement I resigned from my position accepting a teaching position at nearly one-half of what I was making in private industry. People teaching science, or any subject for that matter, do not enter that profession for the money.
 
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Loudmouth

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Because the Bible says in Genesis 1:24-27 "Then God said, 'Let the earth produce living creatures according to their KINDS: livestock, creatures that crawl, and the wildlife of the earth according to their KINDS.' And so it was. So God made the wildlife of the earth according to their kinds, and creatures that crawl on the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, 'Let US make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, all the earth, and the creatures that crawl on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; He created him in the image of God; He created them male and female."

Since when do we change scientific theories based on what religious texts say?

The scientific establishment has told the lie long enough. Fossils aren't factual evidence that connects humans to apes or monkeys.

Why aren't fossils evidence?

If this is true of apes/monkeys to man, why don't we see evidence of transitional fossils being found tying every species together?

Darwin already explained it 150 years ago.

"The several difficulties here discussed, namely our not finding in the successive formations infinitely numerous transitional links between the many species which now exist or have existed; the sudden manner in which whole groups of species appear in our European formations; the almost entire absence, as at present known, of fossiliferous formations beneath the Silurian strata, are all undoubtedly of the gravest nature. We see this in the plainest manner by the fact that all the most eminent palaeontologists, namely Cuvier, Owen, Agassiz, Barrande, Falconer, E. Forbes, &c., and all our greatest geologists, as Lyell, Murchison, Sedgwick, &c., have unanimously, often vehemently, maintained the immutability of species. But I have reason to believe that one great authority, Sir Charles Lyell, from further reflexion entertains grave doubts on this subject. I feel how rash it is to differ from these great authorities, to whom, with others, we owe all our knowledge. Those who think the natural geological record in any degree perfect, and who do not attach much weight to the facts and arguments of other kinds even in this volume, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory. For my part, following out Lyell's metaphor, I look at the natural geological record, as a history of the world imperfectly kept, and written in a changing dialect; of this history we possess the last volume alone, relating only to two or three countries. Of this volume, only here and there a short chapter has been preserved; and of each page, only here and there a few lines. Each word of the slowly-changing language, in which the history is supposed to be written, being more or less different in the interrupted succession of chapters, may represent the apparently abruptly changed forms of life, entombed in our consecutive, but widely separated formations. On this view, the difficulties above discussed are greatly diminished, or even disappear."--Charles Darwin, "Origin of Species"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter9.html

The reason why we don't have finely graduated intermediate fossils for every single lineage is the same reason why we don't have an archeological record for every single day in the life of Charlemagne. The processes that create fossils [are] spotty, at best. This is compounded by the fact that we have only searched a tiny, infinitesimal portion of the fossil record.
 
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Loudmouth

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Source? It should be noted that Louis Pasteur also debunked Evolution in 1864...before it was cool. The Father of micro-biology PROVED life must come from life. He revealed this through scientific observation by the way.

Please, tell us how Pasteur proved any such thing.
 
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Loudmouth

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Gladly! One of the central themes in biology is the germ theory. Some of the great names of biology include Louis Pasteur, Joseph Lister, and Robert Koch. It's often left out that these great contributors towards biological science were also Christians. They based their theories on Biblical truths to formulate predictions on germ theory. They used the Scriptures as their guide. Using verses from Leviticus and Deuteronomy, they theorized that when God commanded the Jews to clean one's hands, their instruments, and other objects, indirectly, God was instructing the Jews on the art of purification.

The methods described in the Bible would not rid your hands of germs. If doctors used the biblical methods we would have patients dying left and right from infections.

Also, I asked for examples of creationists using creationism in biology. Any examples?
 
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Loudmouth

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Wow this is simply baffling considering the evidence that proves that science can be carried out using both worldviews for the betterment of science.

What evidence is that? How is creationism used to do biology?

You obviously don't trust in the mathematical physics and mathematics of how great the improbability is that information and thus intelligence came from energy! Just admit it Darwinism/Neo-Darwinism is secular theology.

You obviously don't have any such physics or mathematics. Otherwise, you would present it.

Also, I find it interesting that you try to disprove evolution by making the theory look like your religious beliefs. What does that tell us about your religious beliefs?
 
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Loudmouth

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And again, creationism was dragged through the courts to silence creationism.

How has it been silenced? What is stopping creationists from doing the science?

The courts didn't ban anyone from doing scientific research to try and support ID/creationism. There are plenty of Christian universities that have private dollars they could use to fund such research. The Templeton Foundation is a private granting institution that has openly asked for proposals which look at science and religious faith. What is stopping them?

The truth of the matter is that they silence themselves. They know that ID/creationism isn't scientific, so why waste time doing science? Instead, they make really bad arguments, trying to refute the work done by real scientists. That's all they can hope to do. They aren't discriminated against in the peer review process because they don't have any research to publish.

You can lie to yourself and say that this was done to discover the truth, but in reality "The Origins of the Species" is the Bible for evolutionists that still want to be believe there is some sort of scientific advantage to be taken from this absurd book. While Darwin did get microevolution right, because even that can be tested today, science still can't piece together where we came from.

Yes, it can. We evolved from a common ancestor shared with chimps.

How did 250 proteins come together intelligently and with the correct information to produce life? Where did that information come from?

That has nothing to do with where humans came from.

Dragged through courts to censor the idea that there may be a God in the universe....a Designer, if I may.

You have heard of the First Amendment, haven't you?

There are also private christian schools, including christian universities. They are free to teach whatever they want. I am not aware of a single private Christian university that has an active creationist research program where actual science is being done. Why is that?

No one here still can answer how it is that Christian scientists today are capable of using their respective scientific fields to make Biblical predictions that turned out to be successful research. They've successfully used their worldview to gain understanding and contribute towards scientific findings. How could they have done that DESPITE the courts ruling out creationism as a viable science?

How has creationism been supported by research?

Further there is a difference between Creationism and Intelligent Design. Even atheists can entertain possible intelligent design without calling themselves religious. Creationism begins with the Bible and says "how can i fit the data into science."

False. Creationism starts with the conclusion, and then ignores all of the evidence that goes against that conclusion. That's not science.

Intelligent Design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as a result of intelligence.

Just like Creationism, ID starts with the conclusion that a designer created something without any evidence to back it.

One example are the sensoreals in the cell that look like tiny turbine engines. Johnathan Wells even worked with a turbine engineer to help with his studies in cancer development. He used engineering principles....intelligence. Or how about Dr. Michael Egnor's approach to his study of the capillaries in the brain? How is it that he used engineering mechanics to understand that capillaries act as dynamic absorbers in the brain...used intelligence to direct his research.

If a cloud looks like a duck, that doesn't make it a duck. Just because a cellular protein looks like a machine does not make it a machine. That's not how science works.
 
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Loudmouth

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It's always hilarious when people get on the conspiracy wagon.

You mention 'tax dollars' - you do realise there are other countries in the world? Are all those other countries part of this conspiracy?

What about all the thousands of scientists scattered all over the world at different universities and institutions? Are they all working together on a conspiracy?

When you start thinking about it the conspiracy idea becomes laughable.

Don't forget the 10's of thousands of Christian scientists that would have to be in on the conspiracy.
 
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lasthero

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Well, you are right about one thing, "its your own thinking", not reality. If scientists were doing science for the money they would not be working at an academic institution, rather they would be working in private industry which pays far far much more. Case in point from experience. I spent most of my professional career (25 + years) as a chemist in private industry. Seven years before retirement I resigned from my position accepting a teaching position at nearly one-half of what I was making in private industry. People teaching science, or any subject for that matter, do not enter that profession for the money.

It's also worth pointing out that creationists can and do make a LOT of money. There are plenty of churches that will pay a lot of money for some scientist with bona fide credentials to show up and tell them that they're right about what they believe, and people like Ken Ham, Ray Comfort, and and the Hovinds make considerable amounts of money each year.

If you're a scientist looking to make money, you'd be far better off joining the ID movement. You'll make more money to do far less.
 
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Chriliman

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Um... Doesn't that disprove the Bible, too?

In the Bible, does God claim to be alive?

Yes, therefore life as we know it came from God. God is alive. Get it?

God also claims that He is infinite and eternally alive, therefore was not created by anything, but rather the creator of everything. He used His own power, which is alive, to create everything in our reality. God did not create everything from nothing.

When I question atheists about the origins of the universe, some answer with "the universe just is". Yet they refuse to accept my answer that God just is. I still haven't figured out why they accept their own answer which can't explain why we observe a beginning to the universe and reject my answer which can explain literally everything in our reality.

Puzzling, but interesting.
 
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