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AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:It was not until 1979 that paleontologists had their first indisputable evidence about whale transition. Pakicetus was discovered by Philip Gingerich in Pakistan. Later, in 1995, Hans Thewissen found Ambulocetus. Whales with legs are now known from Pakistan, India, Egypt and the U.S.A.
I know you cant be so obtuse that you dont understand that the picture is a graphical representation of actual findings that have been researched by experts and classified accordingly. You obviously just want to ignore the facts in order to maintain your fragile belief system. So be it.Uphill Battle said:I'm sorry, I fail to see from that picture the "indisputable evidence" that connects pakicetus to ambulocetus. (aptly named, of course, to fall in the same line)
AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:I know you cant be so obtuse that you dont understand that the picture is a graphical representation of actual findings that have been researched by experts and classified accordingly. You obviously just want to ignore the facts in order to maintain your fragile belief system. So be it.
Uphill Battle said:no, no, what I mean is, if the changes are so drastic as shown in the graphical representation, that what connects them? Similarities? That isn't enough.
Uphill Battle said:Ok, but what about the steps required? Going from a quadropedal land animal to a whale, would take more than just minor changes, it's a complete overhaul. At what point do the legs fuse to a single rear fin? At what point does the spinal column go from having the legs hinged perpendicular to what you observe in a whale today, with the horizontal tail, in line with the spine?
Uphill Battle said:I'm sorry, I fail to see from that picture the "indisputable evidence" that connects pakicetus to ambulocetus. (aptly named, of course, to fall in the same line)
Where do we keep the whales with complete legs? I wouldn't mind having a look, maybe getting a picture? Are they still alive? Do they still swim, or would I better look on land, where they are having a nice stroll? Maybe we could have a whale special olympics, where they see which one is faster on land? Since some apparently only have the one leg, I guess we would have to have catagories, to be fair. Thanks for the info, always nice to learn things.Jet Black said:incorrect description of whale anatomy. the whale fluke (the one at the back is a fluke) is actually a modification of the mammalian tail. the legs remained on the sides and steadily shrank awa and more or less disappeared altogether. there are a few bits of the hip left, and occasionally you even find a whale with a complete leg or two.
Uphill Battle said:no, no, what I mean is, if the changes are so drastic as shown in the graphical representation, that what connects them? Similarities? That isn't enough.
It demonstrates nothing of the kind. There are different whales, is about all. Whales were made in creation week according to the bible. Assumptions to the contrary, because of imagined long time periods and legs on whales prove nothing but one's dedication to a fluke old age belief.AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:...It took less than 15 million years for the whale lineage to move from land, through shallow bays and coastal waters, to deep marine environments. By 40 million years ago whales had become essentially the animals we know today.
The evolution of whales involved much more than legs becoming flippers or vestigial organs. The fossil series demonstrates how their breathing apparatus changed, their ears changed and other body parts changed. ....
uphill battle said:That is why I all capped PHYSICAL. we are weaker, slower, worse senses, more fragile, less resistant to heat, cold, etc...
Jet Black said:order, similarities, location. actually read up, because we all know already that you don't know what you are talking about. look, yesterday you didn't even know that the whale tail comes from the mammalian tail - you thought they were fused legs like a mermaid or something. you are barely in a position to judge on the quality of evidence.
Yeah, fused legs or tails, whatever. Crazy anatomy, who cares.Uphill Battle said:Fused legs, tail, whatever. What I said is, there isn't any real evidence that they moved from one form to another, is there. A series of skeletal remains, some with legs, some not. woohoo. And, for some reason, the whale evolution took WAY less time then other evolutionary processes. they were in a hurry it would seem.
Strawman, and not just a little bit. Why would legs suddenly have to disappear? Why can't they have non-functional legs that get shorter and shorter for a while? Like the legs some whales are nowadays born with? Why do you propose a sudden 'jump', when that is not what the theory of evolution proposes? Seems a bit dishonest, does it not?And lastly, if there were some born without legs, the first fully aquatic whales, they would have nothing to mate with, as theire ancestors would still be restricted to shore areas. or did the fully aquatic whale restrict itself to shore areas too? Why?
If it helps you visualize, think back upon the post where seals were brought up.Uphill Battle said:all graphical representation or fossil evidence that I have seen that proposes the evolution of whales jumps from a legged whale to a non legged one.
I am just about ready to put this guy on ignore.Where do we keep the whales with complete legs? I wouldn't mind having a look, maybe getting a picture? Are they still alive? Do they still swim, or would I better look on land, where they are having a nice stroll? Maybe we could have a whale special olympics, where they see which one is faster on land? Since some apparently only have the one leg, I guess we would have to have catagories, to be fair. Thanks for the info, always nice to learn things.
Uphill Battle said:yep. and I read arguments about both sides. Again, there is no direct evidence that connects this "sea serpent" to a modern whale.
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