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Evolution, New theory or Not?

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SBG

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Is evolution really new theory or thought or has it really been around much, much longer? I will show that this thought is much older than most would like to admit.


The Epicurean, Lucretius from 98 B.C. wrote about origins in his book, On the Nature of Things. He believe the earth had spontaneously generated all living forms: "It remains, therefore, that the earth deserves the name of mother which she possesses, since from the earth all things have been produced;" and "of herself she created the human race." (W.K.C. Guthrie, In the Beginning: Some Greek Views on the Origins of Life and the Early State of Man)

The famous physician, Galen (c. 170), expressed Stoical views of creation in one of his medical works. Matter, he believed, was eternal and his god was not above the laws of nature. Galen wrote:

"It is precisely this point in which our own opinion and that of Plato and of the other Greeks who follow the right method in natural science differ from the position taken up by Moses. For the latter it seems enough to say that God simply willed the arrangement of matter and it was presently arranged in due order; for he believes everything to be possible with God, even should he wish to make a bull or a horse out of ashes. We, however, do not hold this; we say that certain things are impossible by nature and that God does not even attempt such things at all but that he [sic] chooses the best out of the possibility of becoming." (Galen, On the Usefulness of the Parts of the Body, 11.14, in Robert L. Wilken, The Christians as the Romans Saw Them (New Haven: Yale, 1984), pp. 86-87. )

These views were commonly found in the Greek culture and ones the Apostle Paul preached against. He told them "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition. . . ." He preached Jesus Christ as the one whom all things were created through. It was not through the earth that things were created. He told them that God created everything and from ONE man all men came from.

Justin Martyr the philosopher once also held the theory that the earth spontaneously produced life until he become converted. He then dismissed this view and took the view point of creation in six days only a few thousand years ago.

Romans 4:17, Paul talks about God calling into being what does not exist. Theophilus was a great defender of the faith in an apology to Autolycus. It contained extensive treatise on creation. This became a model for many church fathers.

The classical scholar and Bible translator, Jerome, included Theophilus in his Lives of Illustrious Men, which listed "those who have published any memorable writing on the Holy Scripture." Jerome described Theophilus' writings as "short and elegant treatises well fitted for the edification of the church."

Concerning Greek views of origins, Theophilus wrote:
"Some of the Stoics absolutely deny the existence of God. . . . Others say that everything happens spontaneously, that the universe is uncreated and that everything happens spontaneously, that the universe is uncreated and that nature is eternal . . . that God is only the individual's conscience. Plato and his followers . . . say that matter is as old as God. But if God is uncreated and matter is uncreated, then according to the Platonists God is not the Maker of the universe."

He explained, "They (the Greeks) made these statements (about origins) by conjecture and by human thought, not in accordance with the truth." Theophilus admonished Autolycus to search the Scriptures so that he might discover the truth. The harmony of all parts of Scripture concerning the origin of the world and man showed that God was its author. The "Spirit of God . . . came down into the prophets and spoke through them about the creation of the world and all the rest."

Like other fathers of this period, Theophilus saw many types and figures in Genesis 1, yet retained the literal interpretation. For example, he wrote,

"On the fourth day the luminaries came into existence. Since God has foreknowledge, he understood the nonsense of the foolish philosophers who were going to say that the things produced on earth came from the stars, so that they might set God aside. In order therefore that the truth might be demonstrated, plants and seeds came into existence before the stars. For what comes into existence later cannot cause what is prior to it."

A later father who wrote on the six days was Basil, born about 330 into a Christian family. He was highly educated in Greek thought, yet by God's leading became an able and well-loved pastor in Cappadocia, where he preached a series of sermons on the six days of creation. The sermons were used by Ambrose of Milan, and have been translated into other languages. In them Basil admonished,

Let us hear . . . the words of truth expressed not in the persuasive language of human wisdom but in the teachings of the Spirit, whose end is not praise from those hearing, but the salvation of those taught. . . . The wise men of the Greeks wrote many works about nature, but not one account among them remained unaltered and firmly established, for the later account always overthrew the preceding one.

Basil's position on the length of the creation days is seen in his exposition of Genesis 1:5.

"And there was evening and morning, one day." Why did he say "one" and not "first"? . . . He said "one" because he was defining the measure of day and night . . . , since the twenty-four hours fill up the interval of one day.

As Davis Young concludes, "In general, the church fathers regarded the days of creation as ordinary days corresponding to our existing sun-measured, solar days."

Origen, the great theologian of the Greek churches, defended "the Mosaic account of the creation, which teaches that the world is not yet ten thousand years old, but very much under that."

And Augustine, the great bishop of the Latin churches, wrote, "the Scripture has paramount authority, to which we yield assent in all matters."
"That God made the world, we can believe from no one more safely than from God Himself."


On the age of man and the earth, Augustine wrote,

"Some hold the same opinion regarding men that they hold regarding the world itself, that they have always been . . . . And when they are asked, how, they reply that most, if not all lands, were so desolated at intervals by fire and flood, that men were greatly reduced in numbers, and thus there was at intervals a new beginning made. But they say what they think, not what they know. They are deceived by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6,000 years have yet passed."


In his book, From the Greeks to Darwin, Henry Fairfield Osborn wrote,

"When I began the search for anticipations of the evolutionary theory . . . I was led back to the Greek natural philosophers and I was astonished to find how many of the pronounced and basic features of the Darwinian theory were anticipated even as far back as the seventh century B.C."
 

SBG

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Alarum said:
Wait, so the arguement is that the fact of evolution is so obvious from the simple details of the species that even the ancient greeks observed it? I definately think there are some YECs here who will be arguing with you, but all in all I think you're right.

Maybe you can show me where I was talking about the Greeks observing evolution??

Might want to read that again so you see what I am really saying.
 
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Alarum

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SBG said:
Maybe you can show me where I was talking about the Greeks observing evolution??

Might want to read that again so you see what I am really saying.
In his book, From the Greeks to Darwin, Henry Fairfield Osborn wrote,

"When I began the search for anticipations of the evolutionary theory . . . I was led back to the Greek natural philosophers and I was astonished to find how many of the pronounced and basic features of the Darwinian theory were anticipated even as far back as the seventh century B.C."
Sorry, since it's kinda the concluding point of your series of random quotations, I assumed it was the point of your series of random quotations. If the origins of evolutionary theory are found in the greeks era it is because it is so easy to observe similarities in the species, similarities that suggest common origin.
 
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SBG

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Actually it is because the greeks did not recognize a single God. This is something Paul taught against in Acts 17 in his sermon the Athens. The greeks believed that the earth spontaneously produced all things. This is similiar to the evolutionary theory we have today.

The random quotes are to show that the Church Fathers went against this belief that the greeks had. Paul called it idolatry because they gave credit to the earth instead of God.

In another post I will show how all Church Fathers believed in a literal and historical Fall of Adam and Eve. Also they shared a unanimous belief of the global flood. Mind you these beliefs they held, they claimed Scripture clearly teaches them as such.

The evolution thought - earth spontaneously producing life - has been around much longer than most either know or want to admit. Darwins theory was more indepth, but based off of the Greeks philosophical beliefs.
 
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Alarum

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SBG said:
Actually it is because the greeks did not recognize a single God. This is something Paul taught against in Acts 17 in his sermon the Athens. The greeks believed that the earth spontaneously produced all things. This is similiar to the evolutionary theory we have today.

The random quotes are to show that the Church Fathers went against this belief that the greeks had. Paul called it idolatry because they gave credit to the earth instead of God.
Oh. That has nothing to do with evolution. That's naturalism.
In another post I will show how all Church Fathers believed in a literal and historical Fall of Adam and Eve. Also they shared a unanimous belief of the global flood. Mind you these beliefs they held, they claimed Scripture clearly teaches them as such.

The evolution thought - earth spontaneously producing life - has been around much longer than most either know or want to admit. Darwins theory was more indepth, but based off of the Greeks philosophical beliefs.
Darwin's theory was a MECHANISM for evolution, something that was based of observed traits of species in nature. His theory was based off his observations. Evolution passed the tests of the hypothesis, creationism did not.

Earth spontaniously producing life with no God to direct it is atheism. I'd suggest you go argue with them, not here. The part about the church fathers might be relevent, but this sure isn't.
 
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gluadys

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I notice that Henry Fairfield Osborne was "looking for anticipations of evolution". This is exactly the mind-set that will read meanings into ancient writings from the searcher's point of view.

We should not overexaggerate these anticipations. Generally pre-Darwinian writings, especially ancient ones are not speaking of evolution as today's biologists understand it.

In particular, they are often including mysticism, vitalism, and sometimes re-incarnation within the concept of evolution.

So they have to be read carefully and not confused with current scientific theory.
 
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SBG

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Evolution the science started as evolution the philosophy. Whether you want to believe this or not, the same words you use to describe what you believe as evolution to a lay person, the Greeks were talking about. They didn't concern themselves with the science of it, but with the thought of it, the philosophy. Darwin started with a philosophy that he turned into a science.

Interpretations are based on the philosophical view points of the interpretor. Same is said in science when interpreting the evidence. Evidence doesn't stand up on the table and start speaking its own history. Man sits there and concludes what that evidences history is. Whether there are other idications that lead to this telling of history or not are still gathered under that persons philosophical view point. Today we call this our world view.

If anyone cares about theology, they will stop looking to science to answer it and start looking to those whom God has sent to explain it. Those are Jesus Christ, the Apostles, early Church Fathers and of course the Bible itself. Creation itself has never grown a voice and spoke, and if it did, it would only do so to praise God. Man tells you what he thinks creation says. That is nothing more than philosophy wrapped up in a thing called a scientific theory.

When you get down to it, the Greeks said it first before Darwin. Darwin made this thought science. Evolution minus the atheists and theistics, is just another naturalistic philosophy of mankind that has evolved into science. It is then perpetuated by interpretations of evidence based on philosophical world views.
 
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notto

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SBG said:
The evolution thought - earth spontaneously producing life - has been around much longer than most either know or want to admit. Darwins theory was more indepth, but based off of the Greeks philosophical beliefs.

Actually, Darwin attributed the production of the first forms of life to God or a Creator in Origin of a species. How does this matchup with the Greeks philosophical beliefs? Have you actually read Origin? It says nothign about the earth spontaneously producing life.

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved." (Darwin C.R., "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection," [1872], Everyman's Library, J.M. Dent & Sons: London, 6th Edition, 1928, reprint, pp.462-463).
 
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SBG

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notto said:
Actually, Darwin attributed the production of the first forms of life to God or a Creator in Origin of a species. How does this matchup with the Greeks philosophical beliefs? Have you actually read Origin? It says nothign about the earth spontaneously producing life.

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved." (Darwin C.R., "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection," [1872], Everyman's Library, J.M. Dent & Sons: London, 6th Edition, 1928, reprint, pp.462-463).

Let us take a look at Darwins comments on his world view:



"...During these two years (March 1837 - January 1839) I was led to think much about religion. Whilst on board the Beagle I was quite orthodox, and I remember being heartily laughed at by several officers (though themselves orthodox) for quoting the Bible as an unanswerable authority on some point of morality. I suppose it was the novelty of the argument that amused them. But I had gradually come by this time (i.e. 1836 to 1839) to see the Old Testament, from its manifestly false history of the world, with the Tower of Babel, the rain-bow as a sign, &c., &c., and from its attributing to God the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos, or the beliefs of any barbarian....
....Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.
And this is a damnable doctrine...."
 
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notto

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SBG said:
Let us take a look at Darwins comments on his world view:



"...During these two years (March 1837 - January 1839) I was led to think much about religion. Whilst on board the Beagle I was quite orthodox, and I remember being heartily laughed at by several officers (though themselves orthodox) for quoting the Bible as an unanswerable authority on some point of morality. I suppose it was the novelty of the argument that amused them. But I had gradually come by this time (i.e. 1836 to 1839) to see the Old Testament, from its manifestly false history of the world, with the Tower of Babel, the rain-bow as a sign, &c., &c., and from its attributing to God the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos, or the beliefs of any barbarian....
....Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.
And this is a damnable doctrine...."

None of which changes the fact that Darwin did not suggest that the earth created life on its own. How does his writtings on evolution match the philosophies as you state they do?

Have you read Origin? Where does he state what you are claiming? Where does evolution in general do that? I think your research is lacking and your claims are baseless based on the very statements of Darwin related to the creation of life. This quote does nothing to strengthen your argument. It has nothing to do with your argument.

Your original claim is unfounded.

Darwins theory was more indepth, but based off of the Greeks philosophical beliefs.


You have yet to tie Darwins theory of evolution to the Greek philosophical beliefs of the earth bringing forth life on its own.
 
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SBG

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notto said:
None of which changes the fact that Darwin did not suggest that the earth created life on its own. How does his writtings on evolution match the philosophies as you state they do?

Have you read Origin? Where does he state what you are claiming? Where does evolution in general do that? I think your research is lacking and your claims are baseless based on the very statements of Darwin related to the creation of life. This quote does nothing to strengthen your argument. It has nothing to do with your argument.

Your original claim is unfounded.

Darwins theory was more indepth, but based off of the Greeks philosophical beliefs.


You have yet to tie Darwins theory of evolution to the Greek philosophical beliefs of the earth bringing forth life on its own.

Evolution denies ex nihilo. It states that life - either gradually or punctuated - evolved from other life. Abiogenesis picks this up from the beginning which states non-life became life and then evolution took over. This is the basic belief of the Greek philosophers. They believe non-life became life on its own and then this life brought about other completely different types of life.

The earth spontaneously producing life radically different than itself is evolution at its simplest. The earth itself is alive produces life completely different than itself; ex. flora, animals, man. This was the Greek philosophy.

Are you also aware that the Church Fathers refuted anyone who didn't believe in ex nihilo of ALL things from the beginning? Evolution goes completely against this.

Your philosophy and science or not new. They have been rooted in ancient greek culture in the simplest forms, but still the basic idea that is propegated today and was refuted by Christians then, based on Biblical Teachings; which they claimed were authority over all matters.
 
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notto

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SBG said:
Evolution denies ex nihilo. It states that life - either gradually or punctuated - evolved from other life. Abiogenesis picks this up from the beginning which states non-life became life and then evolution took over. This is the basic belief of the Greek philosophers. They believe non-life became life on its own and then this life brought about other completely different types of life.

The earth spontaneously producing life radically different than itself is evolution at its simplest. The earth itself is alive produces life completely different than itself; ex. flora, animals, man. This was the Greek philosophy.

Are you also aware that the Church Fathers refuted anyone who didn't believe in ex nihilo of ALL things from the beginning? Evolution goes completely against this.

Your philosophy and science or not new. They have been rooted in ancient greek culture in the simplest forms, but still the basic idea that is propegated today and was refuted by Christians then, based on Biblical Teachings; which they claimed were authority over all matters.

How does any of this address Darwins theory related to speciation and how do you directly tie Darwins theory to these Greek philosophies. You have yet to demonstrate how Darwins theory and work in anyway has its basis in claiming that the earth broght forth the first life on its own or in the absense of God. Darwins own conclusion in the very work you are talking about directly contradicts this logic. You seem to be straying further from trying to support this point with each post.

Have you read Origin?
 
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SBG

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notto said:
How does any of this address Darwins theory related to speciation and how do you directly tie Darwins theory to these Greek philosophies. You have yet to demonstrate how Darwins theory and work in anyway has its basis in claiming that the earth broght forth the first life on its own or in the absense of God. Darwins own conclusion in the very work you are talking about directly contradicts this logic. You seem to be straying further from trying to support this point with each post.

Have you read Origin?

I never have stated about speciation, this is your addition that you have tried insert into my argument. I have stated the philosophies of Greeks is the foundation of the evolutionary theory. I am not specifying science, but the rather the thought behind the science.

When Darwin began his theory, was there thoughts behind it? The natural and simple thought that was expanded on, was the fact that the a living thing spontaneously produced another living. This production is thought to have been through either birth - punctual - or through slow changes or gradual evolution. This is the philosophy of the Greeks who were Epicurean and Stoic philosophers.

Is this not your position on the subject as well:
The famous physician, Galen (c. 170), expressed Stoical views of creation in one of his medical works. Matter, he believed, was eternal and his god was not above the laws of nature. Galen wrote:

"It is precisely this point in which our own opinion and that of Plato and of the other Greeks who follow the right method in natural science differ from the position taken up by Moses. For the latter it seems enough to say that God simply willed the arrangement of matter and it was presently arranged in due order; for he believes everything to be possible with God, even should he wish to make a bull or a horse out of ashes. We, however, do not hold this; we say that certain things are impossible by nature and that God does not even attempt such things at all but that he [sic] chooses the best out of the possibility of becoming"

The point is, is the thought of evolution a new idea or an has it been around for much longer than you or another wants to admit? Even grmorton will tell you evolutionary thought had been around much longer than Darwin.
 
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notto

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SBG said:
When Darwin began his theory, was there thoughts behind it? The natural and simple thought that was expanded on, was the fact that the a living thing spontaneously produced another living. This production is thought to have been through either birth - punctual - or through slow changes or gradual evolution. This is the philosophy of the Greeks who were Epicurean and Stoic philosophers.

How does this relate to your claim that Evolution or Darwin claims that the earth brought forth life on its own? Perhaps a few quotes from Darwin on the matter would be useful. Darwins conclusion attributes the emergence of life to the Creator. You seem to be saying that he somehow said something different and I'm trying to get at where you came up with that claim. It would be nice to see it from Darwins own words. I don't think you have supported your assertion. Darwin explained abiogenesis with a direct reference to the Creator. You are adding abiogenesis to his argument. An argument he never made or intended to make in his writing.
 
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tryptophan

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I'm still failing to see how evolution and Greek philosophy conjoin. It seems to me that the most logical thing that first quote of yours would be would be, at best, abiogenesis. But I can't see how that quote suggests that the Greeks were precusers to modern evolutionists. It seems to me that that quote could refer to a number of things.

And how exactly do you support the claim that modern evolution is derived from Greek philosophy? Isn't it possible that the two are separate concepts, which may simply have some attributes in common?
 
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notto

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SBG said:
I never have stated about speciation, this is your addition that you have tried insert into my argument.

I just caught this on a second read. How, in a discussion on the theory of evolution, is speciation and insertion to your argument? If you are discussing evolution, then speciation is the basis of that argument.

Perhaps you should give a definition of evolution that you are using, show that Darwin used the same one since he laid the foundation of evolutionary theory your are discussing, show that this isn't basically a discussion of speciation when you refer to evolution as Darwin did, and then somehow relate this to Greek philosophy.

I think you have a bit of homework to do.
 
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