• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Evolution is only a theory!

Late_Cretaceous

<font color="#880000" ></font&g
Apr 4, 2002
1,965
118
Visit site
✟33,025.00
Faith
Catholic
So, why get so upset about it?

Evolution is a theory that is proposed to explain observable and scientifically testable facts - including, but not limited to; genetics, anatomy, biochemistry, the fossil record, biogeography and population dynamics.  In over 150 years new scientific information has come to light (i.e. DNA) all of which has supported, and refined, the original thoery of common decent/decent with modification.  If biological observations where contradicting the idea of common decent/decent with modification then evolutionary theory would have been relegated to being a historical footnote long ago.

 

Now, you can talk endlessly about how evolutionary theory has impacted society, how it affects our worldview or how it has been used in different ways by different philosophies.  Interesting discussions perhaps, but really of no consequence to the theory itself.

 

SO, why get so upset?  Some people seem to take it personally.  Most people who reject evolution do so vicerally and emotionally.

 

p.s.  I am so often amused by the EVOLUTION-IS-ONLY-A-THEORY-SO-THERE! rhetoric. Like somehow is it supposed to be such a devastating  statement to make.  :scratch: YOu might as well say "South Dakota is only a state!".
 

Pete Harcoff

PeteAce - In memory of WinAce
Jun 30, 2002
8,304
72
✟9,884.00
Faith
Other Religion
Indeed. The reason people DO get upset (from what I've witnessed) is because they sometimes feel that evolution contradicts their Biblical beliefs (and usually in case of one or the other, the Bible will invariably win out).

That said, I think all this "it's only theory!" and "we have to make sure kids know what a theory is, versus laws, facts, etc!" stuff is just silly.

First of all, I'm pretty sure the definitions of scientific theories, laws, etc, are part of basic science education (whether or not people remember is another story). Second, why is no one getting all upset over quantum mechanics, or relativity, or the mulitude of other "theories" in science? Why not go on about how "relativity is ONLY a theory! it's not fact!"?

All this uproar about evolutionary theory (which, despite some protests, has a HUGE body of evidence and research to support it) just seems to be cases of FUD tactics. Get people to doubt it, then it's easier to poke "holes" in it.
 
Upvote 0

Didaskomenos

Voiced Bilabial Spirant
Feb 11, 2002
1,060
40
GA
Visit site
✟33,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I can answer this. The reason I felt evolution as a theory was so diabolical was the people who gleefully declare it as an invalidation of the Bible. Sure, everyone here (with the possible exception of excreationist) recognizes that evolution and the Bible's spiritual credibility are not mutually exclusive - but just a quick look at the Infidels website will show that many non-scientists who believe evolution think it singehandedly invalidates the Christian faith. True scientists know that science can only answer the question "how," not "why," never addressing the region of faith and spirituality, much less debunking it.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟47,309.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Originally posted by Late_Cretaceous
SO, why get so upset?  Some people seem to take it personally.  Most people who reject evolution do so vicerally and emotionally. 

Richard Berry had a good essay explaining this in the book Is God a Creationist? edited by Roland Frye. The summary is: "In simplest terms, creationists reject the theory of evolution not because evolution is bad, in and of itself, but because for them it threatens, indirectly yet potently, the very existence of God."  Below is most of that essay:

"The objective of this article is to analyze the evolutionist and creationist positions and explain why the debate is so intense and the controversy so inflamed with passion.  We will first examine what is meant by "stories of ultimate meaning" and what happens when they are told.
"We all have areas in our lives where factual data are absent or inadequate to allow us full understanding of what is true, real, and meaningful.  When faced with such a circumstance, humans usually tell a story about what they believe to be true, real, and meaningful.  The more vital an area of a person's life which is involved, the more important the story becomes until it develops into a story of ultimate meaning, a story which expresses the ultimate truth about life and death.  The more people who share the same story, the more powerful it becomes.
"The absence or inadequacy of factual data leading to stories of ultimate meaning occurs in two different ways.  In the first instance, the necessary or desired data are available but technological limitations prevent their acquisition.  The flat earth story is an example.  It was invented, had meaning, and was accepted as truth by those who needed to have a concept of the earth's shape but were unable to measure it accurately.  The second reason for data being absent is that there simply are none in existence.  Typical of this condition are stories which concern the presence, absence, and nature of God.  No amount of technological advance will allow humanity to either prove or disprove stories about God.  We are faced, therefore, with two varieties of stories of ultimate meaning.  One variety is testable but for some reason has not yet been verified (or falsified).  The second variety of story is inherently untestable and cannot be verified or falsified.
"Most people found it relatively easy to accept the demise of the flat earth story when data showed it to be false.  Flat earth people certainly felt frightened and threatened as their story was destroyed, but most of them moved ahead with a new and better story about an earth with the shape of a ball.  For some flat earth people, the transition was devastating because their story about the shape of the earth was all tangled up with their story about God.  Let us examine why it may have been relatively easy for some to change from a flat earth story to a spherical earth story while for others it was not.  To do this we must observe the differences in the ways the shape-of-the-earth stories and God stories interacted.
"Those who found it easier to shift to the spherical earth story might have said, "The earth is flat and God is in heaven."  The statement really tells two independent stories.  Destruction of the flat earth story does not threaten the God story.  In contrast, those who found it difficult to accept a spherical earth story in the face of overwhelming evidence might have said, "The earth was created flat by God who is in heaven."  This last statement resembles the first statement because it also consists of two totally different stories.  Where it differs from the first statement is in the ultimate tangling of the two stories with each other.  They are so closely interdependent that the destruction of the flat earth story, at the very least, called into serious question God's existence and place of residence.  ... Any time culture or a significant segment of society tells a story that is inherently not verifiable (a God story) and makes it dependent upon another story which is testable (verifiable), we risk intense and divisive conflict. ...
"... Many of the testable stories were believed to be inherently untestable when they were first told.  The flat earth story was told by people who could not conceive of the earth beyond the horizon.  ... The second reason why society will ascribe untestable qualities to a story which is indeed testable is slightly more complicated and indirect.  We can start first with the God stories.  Despite the fact that such stories of ultimate meaning are inherently untestable, we humans are tempted (even driven) to try to test the untestable.  Many, perhaps all humans have some degree of yearning to prove or disprove the existence of God on a more concrete basis than faith.  It is insidiously easy to tie a testable story of ultimate meaning to the God story for when the testable story is verified it also gives a sense of verification of the God story.  All is well unless the testable story is refuted; then the God story is called into question at the same time.  At this point the story-teller must either ignore the refutation or risk losing God. ...
"Creationists are telling a story about our beginnings which is rooted solely in the first two chapters of the book of Genesis.  When we look at the Genesis account, we see that there is both a God story ("In the beginning God created. . .") and a story about the order and timing of creation.  The first story is inherently untestable, whereas the second story is quite testable.  Creationists find the theory of evolution to be very threatening, ...
"Exactly why evolution is so threatening is not obvious.  Evolutionists intend no threat to the God story.  Christian evolutionists share the God story about who was responsible for creation.  Atheist evolutionists find the God story irrelevant to their study of the process of development of life on earth.  A study of the process of creation (evolution) is as little affected by Christian or atheistic beliefs as a study of combustion would be affected by who lit the fire.  The God story concerns the who of creation whereas evolution concerns the when and how of creation, so there is no direct threat to the God story.
"At one time, creationists demanded that evolution be taught as a theory.  Scientists were quick to agree.  Most scientists who are actively involved in research pertaining to evolution view it as a theory or concept which has much merit and is generally valid.  They also agree that the understanding of the details of evolution needs refining and much more research is necessary before the theory is substantiated in all its parts.  The theory of evolution is testable., and the testing is going on continuously.  The creationists had made a demand, and the evolutionists had acquiesced.  For a while it appeared that the threat to the creationist's story had been removed.  Since there was no direct threat to the God story, this should have resolved the controversy and the creationists and evolutionists were free to go their separate ways.  ...
"The question remains, what is it that the creationists find so threatening in evolution?  Evolution does not directly threaten the supremacy of God as Creator because it concerns itself with the "how" of creation, not the "who" or "why." ...  We must conclude by process of elimination that evolution is threatening to creationists even in the form of a theoretical alternative to the two accounts of creation which are given in Genesis.  ...  Despite the fact that creationists assert that one cannot be an evolutionist and a Christian, there are many Christians who are not at all troubled by the theory of evolution.  Let us pursue the difference in response of Christians to evolution in an attempt to understand more fully the threat as perceived by creationist Christians.
"Most, if not all, Christians share the story of God's responsibility for creation, so we must look elsewhere for the reason for the different responses to evolution.  This leaves the Genesis accounts of the order and timing of creation to which some Christians respond as evolutionists and some as creationists.  Why don't all Christians turn to creationism in the face of the theory of evolution?  It is because despite the sharing of the story of God as the "who" and "why" of creation, not all Christians tell exactly the same story about the "how" of creation.  We all share the same words but the story is not quite the same.
To some, the steps and timing of creation in Genesis represent what the ancient Hebrews and their predecessors were able to understand about creation.  To others, these same words and passages are a poetic statement, and the structure of the language in which the verses were spoken, and then written, did more to control the nature and order of events which were included than did any insight into fact.  When creationists use these same words in Genesis they tell yet another story which is that the Genesis account is the way that God actually chose to create the universe.  All of these examples are consistent with the idea of God as Creator.  All of them are interpretations of Genesis to be found in Christendom today.  Only one of the examples is told by people who find evolution to be threatening.  The creationist not only finds evolution threatening to the biblical steps of the creation story, but it is also threatening to the ultimate role of God as Creator even to the point of threatening the existence of God.
"Creationists have set themselves apart from other Christians by intimately interweaving their story of the "who" of creation with the "how" of creation.  For them, it is the flat earth problem all over again.  Creationists have taken a theory of creation which is testable and tied it to an inherently untestable story about God.  In the process, they have declared a testable theory to be also inherently untestable.  As was pointed out earlier, this works fine, if the testable story is verified.  Controversy has arisen because evolution has not verified the creationist's story.  At best, research has shown the Genesis account of the "how" of creation to be incomplete.  Because the creationists have tied their story of the "how" of creation to their story of the "who" of creation, any doubt cast upon the "how" also casts doubt on the "who." Creationists follow a predictable pattern as they find it easier to deny physical evidence than to deny God.  Physical evidence, no matter how overwhelming, can be dismissed as the work of the devil.  Christians who find evolution acceptable, or at least not threatening, are those who have managed to keep their stories of the "how" of creation separate from the "who" and "why' of creation.
"In simplest terms, creationists reject the theory of evolution not because evolution is bad, in and of itself, but because for them it threatens, indirectly yet potently, the very existence of God.  Scientific arguments in support of evolution will have little if any effect because creationists are not really arguing about the validity of the theory of evolution but the existence of God."  Richard W. Berry, The Beginning, in Is God a Creationist? Edited by Roland Frye, pp. 44-50.

 
 
Upvote 0

Anthony

Generic Christian
Nov 2, 2002
1,577
43
71
Visit site
✟25,268.00
Faith
Christian
Evolution is one of those words used which has many meanings. Micro-Evolution, which is the evolution of animals by natural selection has been known long before Darwin, and is accepted by both evolutionists and creationist.

The real debate over evolution is Macro-Evolution, which is the evolution of cell-to-man, lizard-to-bird, ape-to-man evolution. This is Evolution by Mutation or evolution by mistake. This is where the real debate lies.

Also this debate is no longer one of simple thought debating, the subject matter is much more technical. Most people who are debating only know what they know because they have heard or read it in books, and for the most part are parroting someone else's website or research, simply because it support their belief/position. 

So in these debates there is never a real conclusion, but hopefully thought and a renewing of one's mind will occur in an environment free of attack.

RO 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.   

 
 
Upvote 0

Chris H

Active Member
Sep 1, 2002
240
0
60
Ohio
Visit site
✟569.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Evolution may be only a theory but it's a (insert expletive of your choice here) good theory that explains the natural world very well. As far as Macro evolution goes, almost everyone who deal directly with the real evidence for it accepts it, Christian, Jew, Muslim, athiestm or whatever.

Young earth creationsm is destined for the intellectual scrap yard of history and the sooner its adherants see that we'll all be better off.

Chris H
 
Upvote 0

blerg1234

Active Member
Oct 7, 2002
358
3
Australia
✟23,370.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
On the contrary, I've seen a lot of so-called 'evidence' of macro-evolution being torn apart. The difference between Creation and Evolution is that God wrote about Creation, and man wrote about Evolution. Unfortunately for man, I'm more inclined to follow a superior being ;)
 
Upvote 0

Chris H

Active Member
Sep 1, 2002
240
0
60
Ohio
Visit site
✟569.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Questions to start the discussion.

1.O.K., suppose some people have taken a hard look at the evidence for Macro-evolution and torn in apart...What are the scientific credentials of these people?

2.On what real grounds have they done this? What evidence do they suggest against evolution?

3.Why are the critiques of evolution always theological in nature and NEVER scientific?

4. If the critique of Macro was so good why do most all (99.9997%) of biologists accept macro evolution?

5. What other Mechanism do you propose to explain the changes in life during earth's 4.5 billion year history?

6. Why are there so many suboptimal designs in nature if we were recently created by a divine being?

7. Why are so many YEC arguments destryed by thinking people? (such as the arguement that continental drift does not occur)

Inquiring minds want to know!

Chris

Belief in a young earth is intellectual absurdity...
 
Upvote 0

Chris H

Active Member
Sep 1, 2002
240
0
60
Ohio
Visit site
✟569.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Originally posted by seesaw
Well we are the superior beings on this planet. Nothing is more superior than humans on this planet.

:( uh-uh...

Depends on what you mean by superior being. Lots of animal species do lot of things better than humans. Many species might also still be around after we're gone.

Which just demonstrates that in some ways humans are sub-optimal and that evolution is a pretty good model for understanding nature.

Chris :clap:
 
Upvote 0
The theory of evolution makes much more sense than any other alternative idea.   It certainly makes more sense to me than creationism, (I flat out refuse to refer to creationism as science).

What better way than evolution for the Deity's creation to keep moving and growing.   Onward and upward I say.   Biological evolution is the perfect way to keep the trains running on schedule and in a semi orderly fashion, in a manner of speaking
 
Upvote 0

Faithful1

Active Member
Jun 5, 2002
176
1
✟338.00
Faith
Christian
Originally posted by DavidPartay
On the contrary, I've seen a lot of so-called 'evidence' of macro-evolution being torn apart. The difference between Creation and Evolution is that God wrote about Creation, and man wrote about Evolution. Unfortunately for man, I'm more inclined to follow a superior being ;)

Good point, DavidParty, and you are absolutely correct. I find that the ones who always seem to get upset are the evolutionists. They seem to go absolutely ballistic when we present what God had to say on the subject of Creation..... as if we are suppose to believe THEIR theory rather than what GOD has said! :D

Faithful1
 
Upvote 0

blerg1234

Active Member
Oct 7, 2002
358
3
Australia
✟23,370.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I didn't say *I* tore apart the evidence, I said I've seen it done. I don't even remember where, so I can't give you references. It was a few years back :p and they went through various stages of man's apparent evolution, and were discussing the legitimacy of all the so-called evidence of their fossils.
 
Upvote 0

Chris H

Active Member
Sep 1, 2002
240
0
60
Ohio
Visit site
✟569.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
David, Id love to see legitimate debate on the issue. Like I said in Bear's thread I've been following this debate for 20 years plus. The problem is that every time I investigte what a "creation scientist" says about evolution his (or her) arguements turn out to be bogus. Every time I check out what someone who understands evolution has to say it pretty much turns out legit.

Saying you heard something a couple of years ago is not a legit form of arguement. You undoubtably have access to a library and the internet. If there is evidence against evolution, bring it here and present it.

Until then ( for the 9,876,442,873,289,327,350,383,400,427th time in this debate) evolution carries the day.

Chris
 
Upvote 0

lithium.

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2002
4,662
4
nowhere
✟37,536.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Originally posted by Faithful1
Good point, DavidParty, and you are absolutely correct. I find that the ones who always seem to get upset are the evolutionists. They seem to go absolutely ballistic when we present what God had to say on the subject of Creation..... as if we are suppose to believe THEIR theory rather than what GOD has said! :D

Faithful1

Well I havn't seen any evolutionist get upset cause we know the evidence and from what I have seen it's creationist that get upset when evolutionist try to show facks about evolution.
 
Upvote 0

Anthony

Generic Christian
Nov 2, 2002
1,577
43
71
Visit site
✟25,268.00
Faith
Christian
Chris

A discussion of Young earth and Macro-Evolution are separate. One is not dependant on the other. Macro-Evolution is the creation of Life by Mututation. Macro-Evolution is the accumulation of mistakes gives new life forms.


Also if you want a discussion, why not one question at a time? When you have a question, and you ask a friend, or have a question for a teacher, would you ask them 7 questions all in one breath? Even though we can type lots of information on the screen, this is still hopefully a dialog.
 
Upvote 0

Chris H

Active Member
Sep 1, 2002
240
0
60
Ohio
Visit site
✟569.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Yes, it is a dialog. I asked the questions not because I expected a nine page response. The questions were asked because I want people to think about the integrity of the Macro-evolutionary position in the light of evidence.

Pick any one of the 7 and we'll discuss it if you like.

Also, your definition of Macro-evolution leaves something to be desired. Macro-evolution is merely the change of natural living organisms at the species level, which has been observed both in the lab and in nature.

Also, if you believe in an old earth but not in Macro-evolution why do 97-99% of species eventually die out? Is God somehow an inept designer?

Chris
 
Upvote 0