Evolution Is Not Atheism

[Pete Harcoff]

Now, can people stop equating the two? Please?

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 06:52 PM Pete Harcoff said this in Post #1

Now, can people stop equating the two? Please?

I hope so. Like you, I'm getting tired of shouting that. It's really too bad the creationists don't read Origin.  Just to repeat, here is what Darwin said in that book:

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."  C. Darwin, On the Origin of Species, pg 450.

Also:  "To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator, that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual."  pg. 449.

Does this sound like atheism?

Pete, I think we are going to have to discuss the relationship of atheism to evolution.

 

[Praxiteles]

Of course evolution isn't atheism. Evolution is a religion - everyone knows that!

(Edited to add on the off chance people thought I was being serious. )

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 09:13 PM Praxiteles said this in Post #3


(Edited to add on the off chance people thought I was being serious. )

I don't think you have to worry about people taking you serious. But I better add a smile so people do not take me serious when I make a joke about people taking you serious

 

[Praxiteles]

Today at 01:29 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #4



I don't think you have to worry about people taking you serious. But I better add a smile so people do not take me serious when I make a joke about people taking you serious

Seriously? 



 

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 09:32 PM Praxiteles said this in Post #5
Seriously?   

Well, no, not serious. We are actually taught that we are not suppose to insult people, even if we are kidding them, in case they turn out to be sensitive. But you just do so good of a job of setting yourself up, I could not resist.

 

[Praxiteles]

On a serious note, I don't think that I'd be too far off the mark in saying that scientific findings have made it easier to be an atheist.

Lacking a belief in the supernatural is one thing, but I'm the sort of person that likes to have explanations for things. I don't know whether I'd be an atheist or not in the absence of modern science - possibly I would be - but I would have a hard time explaining my own existence without it.

I may accept some creation story or other; I just don't know.

 

[Praxiteles]

Today at 01:35 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #6



Well, no, not serious. We are actually taught that we are not suppose to insult people, even if we are kidding them, in case they turn out to be sensitive. But you just do so good of a job of setting yourself up, I could not resist.

Don't sweat too much about insulting me, John.  I'll always pick lighthearted banter over D&M's any day.  And, as I sure you've already guessed, I knew you were a-joshin'!

 

[Arikay]

I agree Prax.

Another way of looking at it is that science shows a god that is more amazing than we can imagine.
We can imagine a god that can snap his fingers and do anything he wants (which really isnt true if you believe in the bible, but we are imagining here). A rather boring god.

Now, if we realize that science shows that life and the universe are some amazingly complex things and that with all the information we know, we know a very small amount and lots of stuff is still way beyond our ability. You could then say that god wrote all of that in the fabric of space and time, before the big bang.

To me, the second god sounds much more amazing to me, and really puts our little planet in perspective. Jesus taught humbleness, and nothing can give humbleness more than realizing how little we actually know, and how much god must have known to start all of this up. IMHO.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 09:37 PM Praxiteles said this in Post #7

On a serious note, I don't think that I'd be too far off the mark in saying that scientific findings have made it easier to be an atheist.

Lacking a belief in the supernatural is one thing, but I'm the sort of person that likes to have explanations for things. I don't know whether I'd be an atheist or not in the absence of modern science - possibly I would be - but I would have a hard time explaining my own existence without it.

I may accept some creation story or other; I just don't know.

There has always been some sort of alternative. I do not know of any case where it is a question of you have to beleive in this or believe in nothing at all. Of course when you have a either or situation, you always invite a show down. In the case of Moses, Joseph and Daniel for example, when they had their showdown with established science, they won and came out ahead. At least according to their version of the story, sense we are reading the books they wrote.

In the case of Moses and Daniel, they had the best scientific education available in their day.

 

[Praxiteles]

Arikay, do you have any theistic belief?

When I was a believer, the scenario that you describe was my position almost to a 'T'.

 

[Praxiteles]

Today at 01:48 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #10



There has always been some sort of alternative. I do not know of any case where it is a question of you have to beleive in this or believe in nothing at all. Of course when you have a either or situation, you always invite a show down. In the case of Moses, Joseph and Daniel for example, when they had their showdown with established science, they won and came out ahead. At least according to their version of the story, sense we are reading the books they wrote.

In the case of Moses and Daniel, they had the best scientific education available in their day.

Science, as we understand it, didn't exist in OT times, so I'm unsure of what you mean when you say that they had a 'showdown with established science'.

Scientific enquiry had its beginnings in Classical and Hellenistic Greece, after the OT was written, and of course modern science wasn't developed until after the Renaissance.

What is it that you mean?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Today at 09:46 PM Arikay said this in Post #9

Now, if we realize that science shows that life and the universe are some amazingly complex things and that with all the information we know, we know a very small amount and lots of stuff is still way beyond our ability. You could then say that god wrote all of that in the fabric of space and time, before the big bang.

To me, the second god sounds much more amazing to me, and really puts our little planet in perspective. Jesus taught humbleness, and nothing can give humbleness more than realizing how little we actually know, and how much god must have known to start all of this up. IMHO.

I completely agree with this perspective, and this is why I don't understand some theists that simple have to have all the answers in a neat little package. Like you say, God making life on Earth via evolution is far more amazing than simply zapping it into existance.

 

[Arikay]

not really. I do believe in the Tao, or The way. But its not anything thats too comparable to god, so I consider myself an atheist.

I do completly understand how someone could have theistic beliefs especially along the lines I mentioned. If I did have theistic beliefs, it wouldnt be the literal interpretation of the bible.

Today at 06:53 PM Praxiteles said this in Post #11

Arikay, do you have any theistic belief?

When I was a believer, the scenario that you describe was my position almost to a 'T'.

 

[Praxiteles]

I was a Taoist of sorts for a while. I moved through a sliding scale of belief, and Taoism was a part of that.

Not that I looked into it that closely. I did enjoy reading Stuart Wilde's stuff, though.

 

[Arikay]

Thee ol sliding scale of beliefs.

If you want to get technical, im a philisophical taoist, Reformed Druid, atheist.

Hmm, phitauidist. Hmm.

Today at 07:41 PM Praxiteles said this in Post #15

I was a Taoist of sorts for a while. I moved through a sliding scale of belief, and Taoism was a part of that.

Not that I looked into it that closely. I did enjoy reading Stuart Wilde's stuff, though.

 

[Praxiteles]

Today at 02:56 PM Arikay said this in Post #16



Thee ol sliding scale of beliefs.

Yeah, it's like sliding down a stair rail made from razor blades...

If you want to get technical, im a philisophical taoist, Reformed Druid, atheist.

Hmm, phitauidist. Hmm.

Well done!  You've just invented a new philosophy.  Now, to make some money out of it...

 

[Arikay]

Hehehe.
Hmmm...

Today at 08:01 PM Praxiteles said this in Post #17


Well done!  You've just invented a new philosophy.  Now, to make some money out of it...

 

[Micaiah]

Now, if we realize that science shows that life and the universe are some amazingly complex things and that with all the information we know, we know a very small amount and lots of stuff is still way beyond our ability. You could then say that god wrote all of that in the fabric of space and time, before the big bang.

To me, the second god sounds much more amazing to me, and really puts our little planet in perspective. Jesus taught humbleness, and nothing can give humbleness more than realizing how little we actually know, and how much god must have known to start all of this up. IMHO.

Thankyou. That is precisely why I reject man's speculative attempts to explain Creation and accept the truth of the Creator.

 

[Micaiah]

Arikay, do you have any theistic belief?

When I was a believer, the scenario that you describe was my position almost to a 'T'.

Your own experience sadly proves the two beliefs are logically exclusive. To seek to marry the popular views of man on origins and Scripture undermines the truth of God. It is sad to hear of cases such as yours Praxiteles, but I suspect this same scenario has occured in many lives. That is why Bible believing Christians take pains to promote and support the plain teaching of Scripture.

Over recent months I've heard several testimonies along the lines of your own. In each case, it seems doubts raised over the matter of Creation precipitated the loss of faith. In a few cases, the person involved related how they cannot regain their faith now it is lost.

I read an article recently of a well known Christian turned atheist ( surname Templeton?). In an interview, the aging atheist related how much he admired and learned from the man called Jesus. He said how much he missed Jesus.