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Evolution is flawed... (from "how did noah fit" thread)

lucaspa

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Arikay said:
These two links were posted by DiscoJesus in the noah thread, I wanted to discuss them without cluttering the other thread. They are here:

http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/whyEvolution.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/sardi5.html
The first website is predicated on
1. Evolution is atheism.
2. Being an animal means behaving "like an animal". IOW, behaving without morals.

Evolution, as we've pointed out numerous times, has never been atheism. Darwin wrote these in Origin of the Species. If evolution was atheism or Darwin was using evolution to promote atheism, he could never have written this:

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved." C. Darwin, On the Origin of Species, pg 450.

Also: "To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator, that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual." pg. 449.


The site also ignores their fellow Christians. Several Christian denominations have come out with statements accepting and supporting evolution. They couldn't have done so if evolution really is atheism:
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/4650_statements_from_religious_orga_3_13_2001.asp

Also, of the 26 plaintiffs opposing the teaching of creationism at the MacLean vs Arkansas trial in 1982, 23 were ministers or rabbis. Including the Catholic, Methodist, Episcopalian, and African-Methodist Bishops of Arkansas. MacLean himself was Rev. MacLean of the Presbyterian Church.

The second quote in my signature shows how Christians view evolution.

Now, I would just like to point out some of the flawed arguments used on the site. One is the Argument from Authority.

"Theodore N. Tahmisian, a nuclear physicist with the Atomic Energy Commission, has said:


“Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact ... It is a tangled mishmash of guessing games and figure jaggling ... If evolution occurred at all, it was probably in a very different manner than the way it is now taught” (Fresno Bee, Aug. 20, 1959). "​
1. This was to a newspaper, not Tahmisian speaking from science.
2. It's in 1959, and a lot more evidence has surfaced since then. 120,000 papers since 1965 cited in PubMed alone.
3. Tahmisian is a physicist. While competent in his own field, physicists have a really poor track record when they stray into biology. Linus Pauling and the vitamic C fiasco is just one example. Tahmisian is not an "authority" here. He should read Origin because it is full of facts. Darwin never could have convinced his fellow scientists if he didn't have facts to back his ideas up.

Now, the site then goes on to argue that evolution stands or falls on the fossil record. NONSENSE! Darwin convinced scientists of the reality of common ancestry without recourse to the fossil record. However, in their discussion there is one contradiction of their entire thesis: that evolutionists brainwash people by presenting a solid front.

"All fossil evidence is subject to interpretation; and even evolutionists dispute the data.
  1. For example, when Donald Johanson and his colleges discovered the few bone fragments they dubbed “Lucy,” back in 1974, they alleged that this little creature walked on two legs, and was on-the-way to becoming human. Numerous evolutionists, however, seriously disputed this. We discussed this matter in considerable detail in the October, 1986 issue of the printed Christian Courier. "
See the problem here? Even evoutionists dispute the data! Now, if evolutionists are going to dispute idea that Lucy walked upright, don't you think they would also dispute the whole idea of evolution if they could. That they don't dispute it means they can't. The data is too overwhelming. The site wants it both ways: scientists dispute data but all are duped by evolution. You can't have it both ways.

Studies and other fossils of A. afarensis (Lucy's species) including fossil footprints, have convinced everyone that Lucy did indeed walk upright. Not exactly like humans, but that is to be expected of a "missing link" intermediate, isn't it? So now, 29 years after the discovery of Lucy, that Lucy walked upright is also accepted as much as a fact as evolution. We don't argue it anymore because we can't. The data is too overwhelming.
 
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Arikay

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Thanks for the great information Lucaspa. :)
As Christian Courier was recommend by our friend, I did a search as was also recommended and found this,

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/evolutionaryProblems.htm

“Remember the Mount St. Helens volcanic eruption? It occurred on May 18, 1980. That was less than twenty years ago. As a result of that catastrophe, a new lava dome was formed on the site. Not long ago, it was “dated” by the radio-metric method. Guess how old it turns out to be? It yielded a date of 2.8 million years! If that does not demonstrate that the “clock” is broken, then what would?”

No. What this demonstrates is that they dont know what they are talking about.

•K/Ar dating was never supposed to be used on young samples. To use K/Ar dating on a young sample is to misuse the dating method, and thus, bad results are expected because of incorrect use. There are basically two reasons why K/Ar dating is not supposed to be used on young samples. One, the half life of K is very long, and thus there is very little decay in a 50 year old sample, making it very hard to measure it accurately. Two, there is always a possibility of a small amount of contamination, this contamination doesn’t matter as decay goes on, it gets blurred out by the range that is returned by K/Ar dating. However, it can have a significant impact on young samples, that have not had enough time to age. Thus K/Ar was used incorrectly because it was used on samples outside of its known working range, It is best used on samples 100,000 years or older.

•Most scientists double check their results against other dating methods, especially when getting a wild range of dates, to make sure there isn’t something strange going on. AIG did not do that. If they had used multiple methods to test the rocks or area, they might have discovered their error and would not have reported these rocks as millions of years old.

”These people have only succeeded in correctly showing that one can fool a single radiometric dating method when one uses it improperly. The false radiometric ages of several million years are due to parentless argon, as described here, and first reported in the literature some fifty years ago. Note that it would be extremely unlikely for another dating method to agree on these bogus ages. Getting agreement between more than one dating method is a recommended practice.”
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html#page 4



“If this [natural selection] has been the guiding factor in evolution, over vast periods of time, one would expect to find, in the fossil record, evidence of the increasing the hardiness of the species as time passes.

Actually, just the opposite is true. The fossil record bears mute testimony to the fact of degeneration. Earth’s creatures were much more robust in the past than they now are. For example, the January (2000) issue of National Geographic magazine reports concerning a huge depository of fossils found in a large cave in Brazil. It contained, for instance, the skull of a spider monkey that was twice the size of modern spider monkeys. The fossil of a twenty foot ground sloth was also discovered. These discoveries literally shout, “digression!” - not “progression.””


Welcome to a strawman version of natural selection. Apparently their idea of “progression” is for something to get bigger. This is not what Natural Selection says at all. Its basically that better adapted animals will survive.

In our larger Spider monkey example. An animal twice the size will probably need around 2x-8x more food than the smaller animal. In an area with lots of food, this isn’t a problem. But when food becomes less and less, it becomes harder and harder for our large animal to surive, because it needs a lot more food that the small animal. The small animal would be able to survive longer than the large animal. Making the small animal “fitter” than the large one.
(Note, this is assuming everything is equal, there are other ways to adapt to food shortage than getting smaller)


“It is commonly believed that fossils take vast ages to form; this, supposedly, is another of those “proofs” employed by novices to suggest an earth of millions of years old. This doesn’t make a lot of sense, of course, when you think about the fact that when animals die, they are usually consumed by other animals, or simply decay away.”

This is of course why Fossils are rare compared to the number of animals that have been alive on the earth.


“In her abdomen they discovered a fossilized fetus that had been conceived forty-six years ago. The report asserted that only three such cases have been recorded in history. The tiny fetus (0.7 ounce) had solidified into a rock-like substance, hardened by calcium buildup.”

Looking up the article I found that they didn’t actually say it was fossilized,

color=darkgreen]“Doctors at the Veterans General Hospital in Taipei have recently discovered a "fossilized" fetus in the Abdomen of a 76-year-old woman”[/color]
http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20000106/20000106s5.html
Those quotes around Fossilized do mean something. :) it appears to have calcified, like what can happen to your pipes if you have hard water. :)

However, lets make an assumption that it was fossilized, what does this prove?
It proves that in very rare cases, given the right conditions its possible for a fossil to form fast.
This is a far cry from what is needed, evidence that Every fossil was fossilized this way in a very fast event. Often the event that is said to have created all the fossils, the flood, is said to have been much shorter than the age of the fetus.

“But then, most people do not investigate. They simply believe what they are told - especially when it has the fumes of “science.” Many scientists have a vested interest in pushing evolution. Why is that? Because the only other alternative is creation. And that, of course, points to God - and a responsibility to him. For them, that is simply out of the question. “

The Irony meter pegs. They apparently “believe what they are told” as research into things such as the Mt St Helens dating would reveal something much different.

And now we see that they are really trying to equate Evolution with atheism, and are trying to fight Theism vs Atheism. As was pointed out by Lucaspa this is false. I do find it interesting that they seem to be claiming that any scientist that accepts evolution can not be Christian.
They even mixed up creation with creationism. Creation is the belief that god created. Creationism is a specific How, just like evolution. You can believe in creation and accept evolution at the same time, many do.
 
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JGMEERT

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Arikay said:
“Remember the Mount St. Helens volcanic eruption? It occurred on May 18, 1980. That was less than twenty years ago. As a result of that catastrophe, a new lava dome was formed on the site. Not long ago, it was “dated” by the radio-metric method. Guess how old it turns out to be? It yielded a date of 2.8 million years! If that does not demonstrate that the “clock” is broken, then what would?”

No. What this demonstrates is that they dont know what they are talking about.

•K/Ar dating was never supposed to be used on young samples. To use K/Ar dating on a young sample is to misuse the dating method, and thus, bad results are expected because of incorrect use. There are basically two reasons why K/Ar dating is not supposed to be used on young samples. One, the half life of K is very long, and thus there is very little decay in a 50 year old sample, making it very hard to measure it accurately. Two, there is always a possibility of a small amount of contamination, this contamination doesn’t matter as decay goes on, it gets blurred out by the range that is returned by K/Ar dating. However, it can have a significant impact on young samples, that have not had enough time to age. Thus K/Ar was used incorrectly because it was used on samples outside of its known working range, It is best used on samples 100,000 years or older.
JM: Well actually it could be that they were dated accurately. The material that formed the dome contained xenoliths and it is likely that some of the material that was dated formed longer ago. In fact, this was noted in a mainstream publication, but unfortunately I don't have it here. I'll check and get back to you.

Cheers

Joe Meert
 
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Arikay

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It would be interesting to read. :)

Of course, it still wouldn't mean that the lava flow was dated accurate but the old xenoliths, and that they still failed to pay attention to how to use the dating method. I believe ICR claims that no Xenoliths were present in the dated samples.

JGMEERT said:
JM: Well actually it could be that they were dated accurately. The material that formed the dome contained xenoliths and it is likely that some of the material that was dated formed longer ago. In fact, this was noted in a mainstream publication, but unfortunately I don't have it here. I'll check and get back to you.

Cheers

Joe Meert
 
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LorentzHA

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lucaspa said:
The first website is predicated on
1. Evolution is atheism.
2. Being an animal means behaving "like an animal". IOW, behaving without morals........
Wow, great stuff! I think Disco Jesus needs to spend less time at the nightclubs and more time hitting the books..or at the very least looking before he leeps! :D
 
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JunkYardFrog

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lucaspa said:
"Theodore N. Tahmisian, a nuclear physicist with the Atomic Energy Commission, has said:



“Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution we do not have one iota of fact ... It is a tangled mishmash of guessing games and figure jaggling ... If evolution occurred at all, it was probably in a very different manner than the way it is now taught” (Fresno Bee, Aug. 20, 1959). "​


I see very little has changed since 1959....

Oh wait!

A whole lot has changed. Now we know about the programming of life.
 
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