Evolution in your opinion

[Stormy]

This thread is not intended as a debate... but I know that it will probably become one and that's OK. However what I really want to know is how you each view evolution. I have not a completely formed opinion as of yet. But this is my basis.

God created our universe long before he created man.

Plants and creatures evolved from some very basic like-kind species created by God.

Everything did not evolve on its own from little specks of life and become animals and plants and even people. (Is that what some of you think?)

I find this exceedingly hard to believe since the only life that had existed was reptile. So if one was to rule out God then why wouldn’t life have begun again as it was before?

I also do not think that humans evolved from apes.

I do think at the beginning of our time man's appearance was similar to that of the ape. But we did not branch from the ape ... at least not merely through the process of evolution. Our intelligence and capacity to grow mentally and spiritually separates us from all other animals. God created us as humans. We have thus evolved into the people that we are today.

That is the basis of my opinion.

I am not closed-minded. I am interested in your opinions. So tell me in your own words. What is evolution to you?

 

[Jerry Smith]

Stormy, I haven't weighed in for many of your threads, mostly because you seem such a nice person, and I know how these debates can turn ugly. Furthermore, I am not a believer, and you may see my ideas on evolution as a threat for that reason. As much as possible, I like to watch as the Christians who accept evolution try to discuss these things with you.

Of course, I accept universal common descent, or a near-equivalent of it. That means that, yes, I believe all life (including people) is descended from one or a few species of single-celled organisms that were themselves closely related, and very primitive in comparison to anything that lives on the earth today (with the possible exception of some exotic chemo-autotrophs found in deep-sea sulfur vents.)

I did want to point one thing out to you:

Our intelligence and capacity to grow mentally and spiritually separates us from all other animals.

Where it applies to intelligence, this is true, yet only in degree. There is no reason to believe that we are the only animals with any native intelligence and ability to "grow" mentally. Adult chimpanzees in cognitive tests have demonstrated intelligence on the level of about a 6 year old human child. They can be taught to match patterns through games, they can recognize people they have met in the distant past, and they can learn a rudimentary vocabulary of sign language and have actual conversations with people. I just point this out because I think it is important for us to show more respect to our ape cousins (or from your perspective: fellow creations)...

Jerry

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

My opinion is that the scientific evidence for common descent is overwhelming. My own words can't do justice to the extent and meaning of all the data. That's why I refer you to:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc

 

[Stormy]

LiveFreeOrDie: I know that there are a lot of intriguing web sites out there.
I have visited countless numbers of them. But that is not my interest today. Instead I would rather hear how all those theories have affected your thoughts, and yes... I want yourown thoughts and theories also.

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

The evidence speaks for itself.

 

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Jerry Smith Stormy, I haven't weighed in for many of your threads, mostly because you seem such a nice person, and I know how these debates can turn ugly. Furthermore, I am not a believer, and you may see my ideas on evolution as a threat for that reason. As much as possible, I like to watch as the Christians who accept evolution try to discuss these things with you.

Jerry you can speak open to me. My Christianity should not stand in your way. I will not get ugly when speaking to people even if they turn on me. I do not take a disagreement of the minds as a bad thing. Much of our accumulated learning as humans has come about because someone disagreed.

Of course, I accept universal common descent, or a near equivalent of it.

That means that, yes, I believe all life (including people) is descended from one or a few species of single-celled organisms that were themselves closely related, and very primitive in comparison to anything that lives on the earth today (with the possible exception of some exotic chemo-autotrophs found in deep-sea sulfur vents.)

You do believe that a few species would be possible... as do I? For otherwise I would have trouble understanding why in the previous age of this world only reptile existed? Why if everything came from one common ancestor did not the dinosaur age contain at least remnants of all the other species that have found a home with humans upon the earth?

Where it applies to intelligence, this is true, yet only in degree. There is no reason to believe that we are the only animals with any native intelligence and ability to "grow" mentally. Adult chimpanzees in cognitive tests have demonstrated intelligence on the level of about a 6 year old human child. They can be taught to match patterns through games, they can recognize people they have met in the distant past, and they can learn a rudimentary vocabulary of sign language and have actual conversations with people. I just point this out because I think it is important for us to show more respect to our ape cousins (or from your perspective: fellow
creations)...

I have read many of these studies. I find most interesting the gorillas that communicate with sign language. But that would still leave me hard press to believe that if we allowed these animals to progress far into time that out of their fold would emerge a human.

One other thing that I must add to my thoughts of evolution is that ...
It was all masterminded and guided by Supreme Intelligence. Everything that we know as life today was not by chance.

 

[Stormy]

The evidence speaks for itself.

LiveFreeOrDie: Do not allow your mind to be reduced to a file cabinet. Speak to me.

 

[Joe V.]

Stormy, I mentioned this in another thread. I get the impression most people are unconfortable with the notion that we are descended from apes, that we evolved from some primordial goo over a billion years ago. It's not a pleasant thought, is it? It was an extremely long, drawn-out process to go from mere chemicals in the goo to create the complex intricacy that is life today. By comparison, the creation account described in Genesis is shockingly simplistic, and I think is one reason why it's so much easier for many to accept.

IMO, nothing ever comes easy. I've never known anything to just pop into existence. Did you just suddenly appear out of nowhere? Your body went through the same process that all of life has gone through countless times over and over again. You evolved from one cell into the amazingly complex machine that you are today, completely on its own. You're not even aware of most of the processes going on inside your body right now. Do you know how to digest food once you've eaten it? Do you know how to control the flow of blood through you body? Do you know how to repair yourself once you've been damaged by a cut? Every single one of these processes are done independent of any thinking on your part (this was an argument someone else posted before, that received no response from creationists).

In believing this, in knowing how difficult it was for life to have evolved on its own, I have a far greater appreciation for life, and just how precious it is. As a Christian, what do you consider the greater miracle, that we have a creator, or the statistically improbable chance that we "just happened"?

I'd also like to mention that chimps aren't the only ones taking intelligence tests. African Grey parrots are considered highly intelligent, and even better, they actually speak our language!

- Joe

 

[Jerry Smith]

You do believe that a few species would be possible... as do I? For otherwise I would have trouble understanding why in the previous age of this world only reptile existed?

I do believe that a few (meaning maybe 3-5) species of unicellular organisms were the common ancestor.

There has been no age of the earth that only reptiles existed. There were reptiles before there were birds and mammals (as such), but there were also fish, amphibians, countless invertebrates, plants, fungi, and monera.

 

[Jerry Smith]

Some clarifying points: I should have said that a few (3-5) MIGHT have been the common ancestors, instead of just one species of primitive unicellular organism. Another point was there was a time prior to the time that reptiles existed when they did not, but the amphibians and fish did. And a time prior to that when the amphibians did not, but the fish did... etc...

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

Originally posted by Stormy
LiveFreeOrDie: Do not allow your mind to be reduced to a file cabinet. Speak to me.

Well, I see you sharing a lot of touchy-feely comments like "I think this" and "I find it hard to believe that" and "In my opinion". I suppose I could do the same, but I fail to see the point. If you want to understand evolution, then my opinion - any person's opinion - is irrelevant. The only way we can come to a common agreement on the truth is not through a discussion of our personal metaphysics, but on those things external to our psyche and objectively confirmable, namely, the evidence. And that evidence says only one thing: life evolved.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Hi Stormy

 

Don't let termonology like the "age of reptiles" confuse you.  All that it means is that reptiles were the largest, most conspicuous organisms around.  It does not even mean that they are the most numerous.  We call the last 65 million years the "age of the mammals" although birds species outnumber mammals 2 to 1. Heck, there are still more reptile species then mammals today.  THen there are fish, their numbers make landlubbing vertebrates look almost insignificant.  .  Of course, insects have ALWAYS outnumbered vertebrates.  Maybe we should call this the "age of insects and mites" .

 

As long as you are interested in opinions here is mine.  I believe in God, although I cannot imagine the nature of God.  I consider myself a christian, simply because I was raised as one and we choose to raise our children so as well. 

As far as evolution goes, I accept it based on the overwhelming evidence.  Evolution is not just an academic daydream, it is applied science (see this article in USNEWS.COM  http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/020729/misc/29evo.htm)

In my opinion, it is a fact that all life on earth has a common ancestry billions of years ago.  I see no evidence for design in either life nor in the universe itself.

I suppose many would find it contradictory that I could believe in God, yet see an un-engineered cosmos.   I accept evolutionary theory based on its evidence, yet I believe in God as a matter of faith, acknowledging that there is no evidence for the existance of god.  The conflict exists only in our limited ability to imagine and conceptualize.

 

[Raging Atheist]

Originally posted by LiveFreeOrDie


Well, I see you sharing a lot of touchy-feely comments like "I think this" and "I find it hard to believe that" and "In my opinion". I suppose I could do the same, but I fail to see the point. If you want to understand evolution, then my opinion - any person's opinion - is irrelevant. The only way we can come to a common agreement on the truth is not through a discussion of our personal metaphysics, but on those things external to our psyche and objectively confirmable, namely, the evidence. And that evidence says only one thing: life evolved.

well put...

 

[RufusAtticus]

Space reserved for when Rufus finds time tomorrow or the next day to make a long post about the scientific concensus on evolution.

 

[Stormy]

If you want to understand evolution, then my opinion - any person's opinion - is irrelevant.

But opinion, for now, is all we truly have. The evidence is inconclusive and evolution is still a theory although it is well accepted. I sense that some of you are trying to teach me. That is ok, but it is not what I asked. I really do want to know what you think… not what I think wrongly according to you. Can you understand the difference?

Jerry: I agree that life originated in the simplest of organism. I do not think it was one common organism as some evolutionists do. But evolution does not explain the start of life but merely that it progressed. There are many holes that our understanding does not even attempt to fill. I do not have faith that random accidents made by brainless bits of goop created all that we know. So you see it is not the idea of the dirt or goop or even the ape being the origination of me that I find fault… but rather that they acted alone.

Did you know that Einstein believed in Intelligent design and control of the universe…although he did not believe in a “personal God”.

As far as the Genesis story... I see a lot of missed understanding. In my eyes I find words of God speaking of evolution and also a time before his latest creation. I still believe Genesis to express creation from God to his people in a way that they could understand. Have you ever spoken to a scientist as a layperson. Tell me if you do not receive from him the watered down version so that you can understand.

 

[Stormy]

Space reserved for when Rufus finds time tomorrow or the next day to make a long post about the scientific concensus on evolution.

Thank you Rufus! I will be watching for your post.

 

[Stormy]

Raging Atheist: Can you put aside your raging for a time and give me a little more than two cents of thought?

 

[Jerry Smith]

But evolution does not explain the start of life but merely that it progressed. There are many holes that our understanding does not even attempt to fill.

Yet we continue to try to fill those holes in our understanding. Common descent through evolution fills quite a few HUGE holes in our understanding and knowledge. And researchers armed with evolutionary theory are busy about filling more and more of those holes.

I do not have faith that random accidents made by brainless bits of goop created all that we know.

I do not either, yet I am utterly unconvinced of the idea of Creation. Of course: even if I was convinced of Creation, I would still accept evolution - not on faith, but on the evidence.

 

[Stormy]

Of course: even if I was convinced of Creation, I would still accept evolution - not on faith, but on the evidence.

The conflict between evolution and God is only in our understanding. I find the mysteries of life intriguing, and I thank God that he has let us find our path not only into the future, but also back in time to our origination. It is in the beauty of discovery that we find true appreciation.

God bless us all.

 

[Jerry Smith]

The conflict between evolution and God is only in our understanding. I find the mysteries of life intriguing, and I thank God that he has let us find our path not only into the future, but also back in time to our origination. It is in the beauty of discovery that we find true appreciation.

Well said.