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Evolution fails to answer the most important question!

RoyMustang

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I apologize in advance for the long post. :amen:



Throughout all the debates on "creationism vs evolution", there have been may good points and evidence made for and against both. The origin of most species of animals is very well documented, and adaptation and micro-evolution is very evident when closely studying the fossil record on earth. And, even though there are a lot of gaps in the theory of evolution (enough that an unbiased scientist would have to think of evolution as a theory, and still not fact) these gaps seem small in comparison to the vast amounts of data gathered from fossils, current species, and other paleontological studies.

However, as compelling as these data can be, the fact is that evolution only seems to show that certain species may have changed bilologically and physically over the course of longs periods of time, and shows little to no data in regards to how complex bio-organisms came to be from simple puddles of "primordial goo". The single most important step in the evolutionary theory is not that humans evolved from apes, but rather how the cell, the building block of all life on earth, came to be from a suspension of simple proteins in water and other liquids.

The evolutionary theory is largely dependent on the fact that, although all life forms on earth are different both physically and biologically, we all share DNA, and such is the evidence scientists need to prove that all life evolved from a single point. DNA carries the "code" which dictates what form, shape, species, and race a specific living thing takes, and so through mutations, adaptations, and other outside stimuli, DNA can carry the code to future generations. The only problem is, using our current "genetic family tree", we can only go so far, to the first ever cell, carrying the very first amounts of sugars and phosphates that formed the first chain of deoxyribonucleic acid polymers.

Let us for a moment think as a truly neutral scientist, studying for the first time an archaic cell fossil found on a rock, and then let us ponder "what did this little cell evolve FROM?" we now know that a cell very easily copies itself, instructed to do so by its DNA. But when studying a cell, we find that it is a very intricate, complex mechanism. As small as it is, even early archaic froms of the cell were far too complex to have spontaneously formed on their own, even under favorable conditions.

Before even bringing up any other arguments against cell evolution, we must take into account a fairly new division in biology, Biomechanics. A few disciplines that play a big role in Biomechanics are Thermodynamics (both fluid and solid), Continuum mechanics, and other branches of physics. By using these disciplines, scientists are able to study microorganisms as they never before had been able to.

Biomechanics infers that for one to form theories on life at a molecular level, one must observe and obey the Laws of Thermodynamics, and as such the second law will be discussed here, as it pertains to this discourse.

The second law, more notably the law of entropy, states that closed (without an outside energy source) energy systems have a tendency to increase their entropy, in essence slowing down altogether. As a quick experiment, take 2 lego blocks, and put them in a bag, then shake the bag. Statistically, what are the chances that the blocks will eventually connect correctly? How then, can a bio-mechanical system as complex as a cell can come together on its own? By its own definition, the second law of thermodynamics PROHIBITS this from even taking place. A complex system is more likely to break down overtime, and not become more complex without outside influences. What kind of influence would be needed to create such a complex biological apparatus? You decide.

We can easily say that this is probably the biggest and most damaging gap to the theory of evolution, at least when it concerns macro-evolution and the theory of the origin of life. The evolutionary theory might explain what general adaptability is attributed to, but it comes short from explaining the origin of life.
 

chilehed

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...The second law, more notably the law of entropy, states that closed (without an outside energy source) energy systems have a tendency to increase their entropy, in essence slowing down altogether....How then, can a bio-mechanical system as complex as a cell can come together on its own? By its own definition, the second law of thermodynamics PROHIBITS this from even taking place. A complex system is more likely to break down overtime, and not become more complex without outside influences...
I'm afraid that your assessment of the 2nd Law is a bit off the mark. In fact, the development of complex systems is not prohibited by it at all, and the theory of evolution is not in conflict with it. You may be interested in this thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=21640037#poststop
 
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RoyMustang

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Before I respond I just wanted to state that I respect all points of view, and it is not my goal to strip anyone of their beliefs, creationist of otherwise, however I do enjoy seeing great points made to either case, and I also hope I can present a good argument for creationism ^_^.

Evolution and abiogenics are seperate problems.
I'm glad you brought up abiogenesis, because it is this discipline in fact is where I believe the focus should be, and not so much on the theory of Evolution, as they are in fact two different issues in themselves. I agree that evolution in itself does not violate the the 2cnd law of thermodynamics, and in fact there is an amazing amount of evidence that proves that evolution does in fact take place.

However, let's not forget that evolution entails many processes, a few of which are adaptation to an environment, micro-evolution, and macro-evolution. The fact that species of the past and of today show signs of adaptability is well documented. The fossil record shows a staggering amount of evidence of micro-evolution. The two major things that evolutionists have a hard time explaining are macro-evolution and abiogenesis.

There are still too many gaps, or “missing links” in the fossil record, most of which are vital to showing us that macro-evolution can in fact take place. This is not to say that more fossils will not be found in the future, so in this respect we enter a waiting game.

In terms of abiogenesis, the spontaneous formation of life from non-life, there are only a handful of experiments that show only that there could be favorable conditions for micro-biological life to arise from a monomeric formation.These show nothing about how such an event would take place. One of the most notable of these experiments, the Miller-Urey experiment shows how organic monomers can easily and spontaneously form under the right conditions. It does not, however, explain how these monomers would spontaneously form even the simplest living cell. The experiment does clearly show one thing, and that is the fact that an outside force had to act as a catalyst to form organic molecules from non-organic matter, in which case is in perfect harmony with the 2cnd law.

The definition for the 2cnd law as stated by the german physicist Rudolf Clausius, is that “The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium.” Equilibrium meaning an “evening out” of any differences in temperature. However the second law is not only concerned with the change in temperature alone, but also of pressure, density, and work within a system.

Work as it pertains to the second law, is a force or energy generated within a system, with a resultant loss in energy through heat. Work in this case would obviously be the spontaneous formation of organic molecules, which, again, as shown by the experiment, is in concordance with the 2cnd law.

chilehed said:
It has been erroneously proposed that there can be “local” violations of the Second Law, such as when a refrigerator causes heat to flow from a cold body to a hot one.


If thermodynamics and biomechanics can only be used to understand the workings of biological systems, but not their spontaneous creation, formation, and evolution, we can then turn to other branches of science, such as Statistical Mechanics. This discipline works well with the 2cnd law of Thermodynamics by inferring that a microstate (a specific position of a system’s molecules and atoms at a specifically given time), while in equilibrium, is equally likely to occur again within that system, meaning that certain workings within that system are likely to take place again and again. This means that the 2cnd law will, in a statistical sense, almost never be violated in macroscopic biological systems, such as dogs, cats, and humans. In contrast, thermodynamic parameters in a microsystem (a small number of particles or even molecules) such as the entropy within a system are much more likely to show statistical deviations than shown by the 2cnd law, on the order of 1/ √N (N=Number of particles within a given system), as defined by statistical mechanics, and therefore a repetition of microstates within a system is less likely to occur when talking about systems at the micro-level, meaning the 2cnd law of thermodynamics does not work as harmoniously when talking about the formation of cells, as when compared to the function of macro-organisms.

This last part proves abiogenesis less and less likely to have occured than previously believed. The fact does remain, we do exists, and as such, we had to come from somewhere. Statistically speaking, however, it is very unlikely that life could spontaneously have formed on its own, without any "outer" influences, even the fact that lightning could have catalyzed the formation of organic molecules does not answer how these molecules formed complex biological systems. our biochemistry demands a very strict set of events to occur all at once to form even the simplest organic monomer, and even though certain experiments show it can be possible, data from geologic strata has shown that earth’s atmosphere may not have had the exact amount of gases necessary for abiogenesis to occur, and so even these experiments have begun to form controversy in parts of the scientific community. I still maintain that current scientific models do not hold when attempting to explain abiogenesis, especially if we observe current scientific, mathematical, and statistical laws.
 
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Jase

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I apologize in advance for the long post. :amen:



Throughout all the debates on "creationism vs evolution", there have been may good points and evidence made for and against both. The origin of most species of animals is very well documented, and adaptation and micro-evolution is very evident when closely studying the fossil record on earth. And, even though there are a lot of gaps in the theory of evolution (enough that an unbiased scientist would have to think of evolution as a theory, and still not fact) these gaps seem small in comparison to the vast amounts of data gathered from fossils, current species, and other paleontological studies.
The Theory of Evolution will never become a fact, anymore than the Theory of Gravity is a fact. Theories don't become facts. A theory is the highest anything in science becomes.

However, as compelling as these data can be, the fact is that evolution only seems to show that certain species may have changed bilologically and physically over the course of longs periods of time, and shows little to no data in regards to how complex bio-organisms came to be from simple puddles of "primordial goo". The single most important step in the evolutionary theory is not that humans evolved from apes, but rather how the cell, the building block of all life on earth, came to be from a suspension of simple proteins in water and other liquids.
This is abiogenesis and has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Evolution starts with life already being here, and makes no predictions about how it got here.





The second law, more notably the law of entropy, states that closed (without an outside energy source) energy systems have a tendency to increase their entropy, in essence slowing down altogether. As a quick experiment, take 2 lego blocks, and put them in a bag, then shake the bag. Statistically, what are the chances that the blocks will eventually connect correctly? How then, can a bio-mechanical system as complex as a cell can come together on its own? By its own definition, the second law of thermodynamics PROHIBITS this from even taking place. A complex system is more likely to break down overtime, and not become more complex without outside influences. What kind of influence would be needed to create such a complex biological apparatus? You decide.
The 2nd law of thermodynamics does not prevent evolution. In fact, it's such a bad argument it is on Answers in Genesis' arguments creationists shouldn't use list.

We can easily say that this is probably the biggest and most damaging gap to the theory of evolution, at least when it concerns macro-evolution and the theory of the origin of life. The evolutionary theory might explain what general adaptability is attributed to, but it comes short from explaining the origin of life.
Yes, it does come short of explaining the origin of life since the origin of life has absolutely nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution.
 
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The Ascetic Crusader

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Yes, it does come short of explaining the origin of life since the origin of life has absolutely nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution.

Exactly ! That´s why evolution is BUNK. That´s like saying :
"I´ve got a theory on how kernels become popcorn . But not only have I never actually SEEN a kernel do it, I´ve never seen a kernel or know how to get one".

Ludicrous.:doh:
 
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ScMay

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Exactly ! That´s why evolution is BUNK. That´s like saying :
"I´ve got a theory on how kernels become popcorn . But not only have I never actually SEEN a kernel do it, I´ve never seen a kernel or know how to get one".

Ludicrous.:doh:
That is wrong on o many levels. Evolution is more like 'we have a kernel and this is how it becomes popcorn' (the analogy is still bad but hopefully you get the point). Also we HAVE seen 'kernels turn into popcorn' and 'things part way between kernel and popcorn'. Abiogenesis is how you 'get the kernel', how you get something capable of evolving (life).

As for seeing 'seeing the kernel become popcorn' (lol, such a weird analogy) here is an example.
Medicine - the theory of evolution is pretty important for things like disease control, antibiotics, vaccines, genetic diseases, the understanding of various features (from anatomical to biochemical). Antibiotic resistance and the development of new diseases in particular are examples of evolution in action. Predictions can be made about genetic disease distributions based on evolution which is evidence further evidence (since it matches with what is latter observed).

This is far from the only example of evolution being seen. So just remember, every time you go to the doctor you have evolution to thank for part of the treatment you receive. If evolution was bunk then how come it works so well and why do you use technology based on it?
 
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The Ascetic Crusader

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Also we HAVE seen 'kernels turn into popcorn' and 'things part way between kernel and popcorn'. (life).

So ? That doesn´t prove evolution. That statement would presupose knowledge of where an organism is headed (in an evolutionary sense).

We don´t.
 
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us38

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However, as compelling as these data can be, the fact is that evolution only seems to show that certain species may have changed bilologically and physically over the course of longs periods of time, and shows little to no data in regards to how complex bio-organisms came to be from simple puddles of "primordial goo".

General relativity shows little to no data on stock market fluctautions. You don't see me using that to prove general relativity is false, however.
 
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Atheuz

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fail. Abiogenesis is NOT what Evolution deals with, Evolution deals with the Origin of Species - NOT THE ORIGIN OF LIFE. It's like saying, Theory of Gravity doesn't explain how the world was created, therefore it fails!

Again just to make it clear: EVOLUTION = NOT ABIOGENESIS, NOT THE ORIGIN OF LIFE, IT IS THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES IT EXPLAINS.

Again: Evolution is not meant to explain the origin of life, Darwin did not intend it to go that direction, he wanted to explain the Origin of Species. Completely different things.
 
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There are still too many gaps, or “missing links” in the fossil record, most of which are vital to showing us that macro-evolution can in fact take place. This is not to say that more fossils will not be found in the future, so in this respect we enter a waiting game.

I'm always curious if people who insist there are "too many" gaps in the fossil record are either a) ignorant of the many transitional examples we have, b) appealing to Zeno's paradox or c) defining "transitional" in some other way than paleontologists and evolutionary theory does.

Could you explain further what you mean by the assertion I quoted so I can get an idea of what you mean?
 
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ScMay

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So ? That doesn´t prove evolution. That statement would presupose knowledge of where an organism is headed (in an evolutionary sense).

We don´t.
Uhhh no. It would involve looking at past stages of a species. Either through the fossil record or records by people of that species over time (the latter is more to do with micro-organisms, the former to do with macro-organisms)
 
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WatersMoon110

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It amuses me that many people who challenge evolution actually aren't contradicting evolution at all. "Evolution" does not mean "all Science I don't happen to (as a Christian) agree with".

The Big Bang Theory (which I have seen other people try to use to discredit evolution) and Abiogenesis are not part of the Theory of Evolution.

It is true that there is no good theory for how life on this planet started. In fact, one of the more popular theories is that microorganisms actually got to this planet on meteors from other planets. Many Scientists are studying lightening strikes on the ocean and hot ocean vents trying to figure out if these might have caused the first life to happen. No one has a very good Scientific Theory on how life on this planet started.

However, this does nothing to discredit the Theory of Evolution, which is only concerned with how life has changed over time.
 
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TeddyKGB

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It is true that there is no good theory for how life on this planet started.
Not so. Several are good, with 'RNA World' being perhaps the best, but none are complete.
In fact, one of the more popular theories is that microorganisms actually got to this planet on meteors from other planets.
Not so much microorganisms but organic compounds and macromolecule precursors, some of which have been found via spectral analysis of extraterrestrial material.
 
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MrLogic

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I apologize in advance for the long post. :amen:



Throughout all the debates on "creationism vs evolution", there have been may good points and evidence made for and against both. The origin of most species of animals is very well documented, and adaptation and micro-evolution is very evident when closely studying the fossil record on earth. And, even though there are a lot of gaps in the theory of evolution (enough that an unbiased scientist would have to think of evolution as a theory, and still not fact) these gaps seem small in comparison to the vast amounts of data gathered from fossils, current species, and other paleontological studies.

However, as compelling as these data can be, the fact is that evolution only seems to show that certain species may have changed bilologically and physically over the course of longs periods of time, and shows little to no data in regards to how complex bio-organisms came to be from simple puddles of "primordial goo". The single most important step in the evolutionary theory is not that humans evolved from apes, but rather how the cell, the building block of all life on earth, came to be from a suspension of simple proteins in water and other liquids.

The evolutionary theory is largely dependent on the fact that, although all life forms on earth are different both physically and biologically, we all share DNA, and such is the evidence scientists need to prove that all life evolved from a single point. DNA carries the "code" which dictates what form, shape, species, and race a specific living thing takes, and so through mutations, adaptations, and other outside stimuli, DNA can carry the code to future generations. The only problem is, using our current "genetic family tree", we can only go so far, to the first ever cell, carrying the very first amounts of sugars and phosphates that formed the first chain of deoxyribonucleic acid polymers.

Let us for a moment think as a truly neutral scientist, studying for the first time an archaic cell fossil found on a rock, and then let us ponder "what did this little cell evolve FROM?" we now know that a cell very easily copies itself, instructed to do so by its DNA. But when studying a cell, we find that it is a very intricate, complex mechanism. As small as it is, even early archaic froms of the cell were far too complex to have spontaneously formed on their own, even under favorable conditions.

Before even bringing up any other arguments against cell evolution, we must take into account a fairly new division in biology, Biomechanics. A few disciplines that play a big role in Biomechanics are Thermodynamics (both fluid and solid), Continuum mechanics, and other branches of physics. By using these disciplines, scientists are able to study microorganisms as they never before had been able to.

Biomechanics infers that for one to form theories on life at a molecular level, one must observe and obey the Laws of Thermodynamics, and as such the second law will be discussed here, as it pertains to this discourse.

The second law, more notably the law of entropy, states that closed (without an outside energy source) energy systems have a tendency to increase their entropy, in essence slowing down altogether. As a quick experiment, take 2 lego blocks, and put them in a bag, then shake the bag. Statistically, what are the chances that the blocks will eventually connect correctly? How then, can a bio-mechanical system as complex as a cell can come together on its own? By its own definition, the second law of thermodynamics PROHIBITS this from even taking place. A complex system is more likely to break down overtime, and not become more complex without outside influences. What kind of influence would be needed to create such a complex biological apparatus? You decide.

We can easily say that this is probably the biggest and most damaging gap to the theory of evolution, at least when it concerns macro-evolution and the theory of the origin of life. The evolutionary theory might explain what general adaptability is attributed to, but it comes short from explaining the origin of life.
You are mistaken in one thing. The 2nd law does not PROHIBITS the construction of these organisms. It simply makes it very improbable. The two legos pieces may not connect in the first trial, but give enough time, they will. It is Quantum theory. Anything that has the probability of happening, will happen.

And yes, this is a very big gap in the theory of evolution. But remember, the Hypothesis of god has even bigger gaps. Scientist just choose the theory with the smallest gaps. If the god hypothesis had smaller and less gaps than Evolutions, we would be teaching it in Schools. But since it doesn't, we don't.
 
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us38

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And yes, this is a very big gap in the theory of evolution.

No, it's not. At best, it's a detractor to abiogenesis, which is NOT the theory of evolution. Second, the total entropy of a closed system must increase with time, but that does not mean the entropy must increase everywhere. The entropy of an isolated spot can easily drop, so long as the total entropy of the system increases. Finally, the second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems, which the earth most certainly is not (see that big bright light in the sky? That gives us quite a bit of energy).
 
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MrLogic

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No, it's not. At best, it's a detractor to abiogenesis, which is NOT the theory of evolution. Second, the total entropy of a closed system must increase with time, but that does not mean the entropy must increase everywhere. The entropy of an isolated spot can easily drop, so long as the total entropy of the system increases. Finally, the second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems, which the earth most certainly is not (see that big bright light in the sky? That gives us quite a bit of energy).
Unn, didn't think of that. Oh well, I'm just saying what I know. (my thing is physics, no bio).

All I know is that we cannot come to the conclusion that every complex thing in this universe HAS to be made by some superman living in the sky that is even MORE complex than that thing. There are way better theories out there.
 
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