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Actually, changing the gene pool demonstrably does have a long term impact on a species, ourselves included. We just have an ethical issue with how the Nazis tried to do it, as well as a procedural issue with it. Any time you try to breed for specific traits in a population, you inevitably lose some genetic diversity. The genetic diversity lost could include genes for resistances to diseases that don't yet exist, which puts the population at a greater risk of being eliminated through illness.
Plus, you wouldn't actually have to kill anyone to improve the overall health of humanity; all one would have to do is look at the patterns of inheritance for various genetic diseases. People with the autosomal dominant or X-linked recessive deadly diseases could simply be informed, and this would likely influence their reproductive choices (most people would have fewer kids of their own free will if they risked passing down Huntington's disease, for example). Otherwise, a great way to reduce recessive diseases is to have kids with people as genetically dissimilar to you as humanly possible, and one of the easiest ways to tell if someone has a different genetic background than you is to note if their race is different. That's right, racial purity is complete garbage, as far as evolution is concerned.
Now we are getting close to the technology necessary to remove the most harmful genes from a person's genome while they are still developing, subverting genetic risk via lineage entirely. And once removed, they won't risk passing it down to future generations either.
So, the Nazi way is unnecessarily cruel, and counterproductive. What they were actually doing would have just produced a genetic bottleneck, reducing some genetic diseases, but ultimately making way for others to become more common and increase damage from future epidemics, at the cost of an extreme loss of life.
but the difference is that scientifically verifiable evidence would change our minds. Creationists on the other hand refuse to recognise evidence that doesn't conform to their previously held beliefs. Probably should start a thread or go converse on another thread since this thread is specifically for @PsychoSarah 's evolution experiment and not for you to deny reality.I have to agree Sarah, I have also debated and discussed such things with many creationists who are as dogmatic that such things NEVER happened as there are evolutionists who are as dogmatic that fish DID IN FACT become amphibians that became reptiles that became mammals and so on. It is very difficult to open the closed mind.
A person's beliefs should be set aside from the interpretation of data as much as possible. Furthermore, data will either support a hypothesis, or it won't support it, simple as that. How people determine which results would support a given hypothesis isn't arbitrary. Also, a hypothesis isn't a good basis to believe in anything; every hypothesis is testable by definition, but that doesn't mean that every hypothesis has been tested.Where does one draw the line between where the belief interprets and defines the data, and where the data gets to shape the hypothesis based belief?
So are you going to participate in the experiment or not? All you have to do is pick 2 traits out of the 6 I listed in the OP. Performing the experiment alongside me is entirely optional, and mostly for the benefit of people that really do think there is some evolution conspiracy or just don't consider me trustworthy... for whatever reason.I have to agree Sarah, I have also debated and discussed such things with many creationists who are as dogmatic that such things NEVER happened as there are evolutionists who are as dogmatic that fish DID IN FACT become amphibians that became reptiles that became mammals and so on. It is very difficult to open the closed mind.
Adaptation does not equal evolution.
Adaptation is a conservative process.
Nope, changes in trends for already existing variation within a population is also evolution. Not that it matters, considering that mutation does produce new traits.Evolution requires the acquisition of new traits the the encoding of them into the reproductive system.
Sounds redundant and silly, considering the fact that no one is arguing that organisms with endoskeletons evolved from organisms with exoskeletons. Once you have one, you don't need the other; both evolved from organisms that didn't have skeletons.Let me know when you change the skeletal structure from exoskeleton to endoskeleton.
Are you a creationist? Are you skeptical of the theory of evolution? Do you think it has never been observed and all the experiments and observations are either interpreted incorrectly or are the product of a global conspiracy? Well, now's your chance to be involved in an evolution experiment yourself!
The experimental subjects are Triops, little crustaceans that have generation times of less than a month.
"But Sarah, I don't want to take care of any gross looking vermin". No worries, I'm going to take care of these guys for you.
"But Sarah, I actually do want some Triops and to do the experiment directly with my own hands". No problem, Triops are very easy to care for, and the great part about experiments is that they are repeatable. So, as long as you do what I do, you'll get results!
"So Sarah, exactly how are we involved in the experiment?" An excellent question. What you'll be doing is acting as "natural selection". You decide what traits should "improve survival", and which ones won't. This will be determined by vote: make a post with the 2 traits you want our experimental population to develop, and I'll change the conditions to those which would result in that trait being favored gradually enough that we don't just kill off the whole population.
Here are the traits you can select, and be sure not to pick contradictory ones!
Longer tails
Shorter tails
Wide bodies
Narrow bodies
More color
Less color
"But Sarah, they'll still be Triops, and that's not evolution". I'm not going to argue about what evolution is with anyone in this particular thread; however, this experiment will continue until the experimental population and the control population are recognizably distinct from each other, or when the control population and the experimental population can no longer interbreed. "How long do you think that'd take, Sarah?" Years; I'm prepared to continue this experiment for a decade, posting the current progress every month on this site. This is probably going to be an aspect of my master's thesis.
"Sarah, are any Triops going to be killed because they don't have the traits we asked for?" Nope, the ones that don't exhibit the traits are put into a third tank. They can't be put into the control tank, though, because that'd likely skew the gene pool of that population to favor the opposite qualities of the experimental tank, which would make the results in the experimental tank seem more drastic than they really were. However, in case the control tank does have some genetic anomalies, I am going to carefully measure members of the first 2 generations to make sure the original average bodies are recorded.
So, any creationists want to have some fun with evolution?
Perhaps, if one believes that a deity initially created simple life, and evolution as a mechanism designed by said deity for life to develop and change with.This is very interesting thanks for doing this.
Would this also be demonstrating how God might of evolved initial life? Albeit, without demonstrating the initial creation of life from non-life material...?
Sounds just like my kids.Trait 1: Rise up and overthrow their tyrannical eugenical overlord.
Trait 2: Refuse to eat carrots.
I have to agree Sarah, I have also debated and discussed such things with many creationists who are as dogmatic that such things NEVER happened as there are evolutionists who are as dogmatic that fish DID IN FACT become amphibians that became reptiles that became mammals and so on. It is very difficult to open the closed mind.
I interpret "more color" as more pigment in general. Since these organisms start out as a sort of sandy color, that leaves a lot of room for potential colors via mutation. However, since mutation is not guided, I can't guarantee any specific colors will appear, only a trend from the sandy color to something else.Ok I'll play. I am a creationist.
I want to see more color and shorter tails.
Can I pick the colors? Or patterns?
I want to see some brighter colors in them.
And shorter tails just because
I interpret "more color" as more pigment in general. Since these organisms start out as a sort of sandy color, that leaves a lot of room for potential colors via mutation. However, since mutation is not guided, I can't guarantee any specific colors will appear, only a trend from the sandy color to something else.
The most likely colors to appear are red (happened in a different species of Triops from the one I am using, though), green, and blue. I'm crossing my fingers for purple and black, personally.
A color pattern would be a separate mutation entirely, and it is actually difficult enough as it is to select for 2 different, unrelated traits. However, if you wish to perform the experiment yourself, I can guide you on how to select for that. It is possible that by random luck, the experimental population will have a color pattern mutation, and I wouldn't exile it from the population if that did happen.
Thank you for your votes, good sir.
Pfft, so help me if people accuse me of airbrushing, I'll send them some eggs to hatch if they think I am enhancing the color. Funnily enough, the pictures taken by my garbage camera have their color somewhat muted, so the images are going to err in the less colorful direction.I'll buy that. I was actually thinking red or blue. Patterns would be nice but it's pretty reasonable to have it fall out without a pattern. If it was too patternized then you could be accused of airbrushing, lol.
So any kind of hippy dippy surrealistic whatever is cool. However it falls out. Why would purple or black be harder?
I don't blame you on that; while Triops aren't demanding to take care of, they must be fed at least 3 times a day to avoid a notable risk of cannibalism. Unless you use Triops cancriformis, like I tried to do originally (eggs wouldn't hatch). I really wish those eggs had hatched, because using a gendered species makes me very stressed about their potential to eat each other.I have so much going on in my life right now that there's no way I could hope to be able to set up tanks and care for little tadpole dudes. Maybe later some time when things stabilize more for me (if they do!) I could, but right now it'd be asking too much and I know it. You however are on top of it and all setup already and so we'll go with you and your setup.
I will do that later; unfortunately for me, two of the tanks I bought have bad seals and leak, so I have to fix them. However, this image is representative of a bare-bones Triops tank (no filter, no heater) https://fotoalbum.dds.nl/vagevuur/aquarium/medium/IMG_2858.JPG . If one keeps it under 70 degrees in their house at any point, they should use a heater, because I found out the hard way that Triops eggs, even of the most cold tolerant species easily available, will not hatch at 65 degrees. That's 21 and 18 degrees Celsius, respectively. I'm going to be using distilled water, even though adults can tolerate tap water that's treated to remove the chlorine and other stuff they don't like, since that's actually cheaper than treating the water is and babies won't hatch in tap water with as high of a ppm as I have. I use baking soda to control the pH (distilled water is acidic), and you can buy pH strips at any pet store. As long as the pH is greater than 6 and less than 10, it's all good (though, they prefer it if it is 7-9). A ridiculously generous range for an aquatic organism.Could you perhaps post a pic or three of your tank setups? That would be kind of cool to see your setup. Perhaps even a general idea of how much a setup would cost, because, I like experimenting, and it might be cool for something to do in the future. Or maybe I could start collecting a piece at a time or something in prep.
I hope I get to watch evolution in action, I suppose. Though, I would be fine with there being absolutely no change in the Triops. The purpose was more to design an evolution experiment anyone could do which didn't involve bacteria than to want a specific outcome. No high-end, expensive equipment. No high maintenance organisms. No waiting a lifetime for results, and no need for a huge amount of space. Would it be awesome to have three 100 gallon tanks dedicated to this, and would it make for better results? Absolutely, but who has the time and money to throw around for that? I certainly don't. Heck, I'll lay out the costs of all the stuff I got right now, in USD:You've probably already posted this, but my memory isn't so great (too many years as a pothead I guess), so let me ask you, what is your end goal in this experiment? What do you hope to achieve?
I have no idea why they don't want to vote for traits. Yes, 10 years is a long time, I doubt most of them will still be active by the time the experiment is completed, but based on some basic math, it's likely that the experimental population will be noticeably different from the control group in less than 2 years. That's a pretty short amount of time for an evolution experiment, honestly. Especially for a multicellular organism; most of those span multiple decades and are indefinitely ongoing.I find it a little odd that you've had a hard time getting participation from creationists. This is very cool, and whatever the outcome, we're all bound to learn something.
Pfft, so help me if people accuse me of airbrushing, I'll send them some eggs to hatch if they think I am enhancing the color. Funnily enough, the pictures taken by my garbage camera have their color somewhat muted, so the images are going to err in the less colorful direction.
Purple and black would be less likely, because the Triops don't produce any purple or black pigments, in the case of the species I am using for "attempting to hatch, take two". Red is a color mutation that has appeared in at least 2 different species before, so there is a decent chance that the mutation that causes it is rather simple and on a shared gene between all members of the genus. Same goes with green, albeit with just a specific population of a different species. Triops do produce a blue pigment... in their muscles, so it is possible for a mutation to cause that to be expressed in their exoskeletons.
Basically, purple would be an entirely new color for which there isn't any precedent in this species of Triops, so the presence of this color would have to be caused by a unique mutation, and black contrasts the most with the color they start out as.
I will do that later; unfortunately for me, two of the tanks I bought have bad seals and leak, so I have to fix them.
I will do that later; unfortunately for me, two of the tanks I bought have bad seals and leak, so I have to fix them. However, this image is representative of a bare-bones Triops tank (no filter, no heater) https://fotoalbum.dds.nl/vagevuur/aquarium/medium/IMG_2858.JPG . If one keeps it under 70 degrees in their house at any point, they should use a heater, because I found out the hard way that Triops eggs, even of the most cold tolerant species easily available, will not hatch at 65 degrees. That's 21 and 18 degrees Celsius, respectively. I'm going to be using distilled water, even though adults can tolerate tap water that's treated to remove the chlorine and other stuff they don't like, since that's actually cheaper than treating the water is and babies won't hatch in tap water with as high of a ppm as I have. I use baking soda to control the pH (distilled water is acidic), and you can buy pH strips at any pet store. As long as the pH is greater than 6 and less than 10, it's all good (though, they prefer it if it is 7-9). A ridiculously generous range for an aquatic organism.
My tanks will look more like this, since I decided to have heaters and filters, and I am not huge on decorations for the tank (aside from a marimo or two) http://i.imgur.com/AFGEbKQ.jpg . For organisms like this, I highly recommend double sponge filters like the one in the picture. It's the same as the one I am going to use, and the benefit of having two sponges is that you can clean one at a time to prevent the tank from cycling again, and they're fairly cheap.
So, that makes my personal total about $115 for the whole set up, but I am going above and beyond. Considering that heaters aren't inherently necessary for everyone to get the eggs to hatch, and considering that filters are never an absolute necessity, it could have been as low as $64. That, and plenty of people probably have some leftover tank stuff from pets they've had before.
I have no idea why they don't want to vote for traits. Yes, 10 years is a long time, I doubt most of them will still be active by the time the experiment is completed, but based on some basic math, it's likely that the experimental population will be noticeably different from the control group in less than 2 years. That's a pretty short amount of time for an evolution experiment, honestly. Especially for a multicellular organism; most of those span multiple decades and are indefinitely ongoing.
Ha. it's simple to fix leaks, you just have to take out the silicone lining the corners of the tank and reapply new silicone glue. Always test a tank before putting organisms in it.What? You can fix them too? Intelligent and mechanically inclined? I'm impressed. How come the hubby wont fix them for you? Lol. J/K.
XD I'm not even using big ones, 10 gallon tanks are modest sized fish tanks and probably the most common size seen in houses.Oh that's just a big fish tank. had envisioned some sort of specialized stainless steel tank for some reason.
Sounds like she tried to do a saltwater tank without doing research first. Saltwater tanks, unlike the freshwater tanks I am setting up, are notoriously difficult to maintain. I'd also bet she didn't cycle the tank properly either; before dumping in a bunch of fish, you're supposed to actually have a couple "disposable ones" in the tank while the tank cycles. Tanks that have never been cycled before will go through phases in which bacteria that produce toxic chemicals appear, followed later by bacteria which actually help serve as natural filters. It takes usually 6-8 weeks to cycle a tank, and during this time frame, one must take special care to perform chemical tests on the water, do frequent water changes, and watch the behavior of the test fish to make sure the water never gets too toxic. Plus, even in a cycled tank, you can't just dump new fish in. If the mineral content of the water of the tank doesn't match what those fish were raised in, they can die from the difference in osmotic pressure. Thus, the bag they traveled in should be set in the water, and water from the tank gradually added into the bag over the course of a couple hours. That way, they don't die from the shock (this goes for the disposable test fish too, of course).I've never had good luck with fish though, lol. My niece doesn't either. Man, her last tax check she wasted on 2500 bucks worth of nice tank and expensive fish...and 2 grand worth of fish died within a week or so! Whoa.
If it's at least 30 gallons, you could just use dividers to make that one tank contain the control, experimental, and overflow groups by itself.My nieces setup sits at my brothers house empty. She gave up on it. I bet I could walk out with the entire setup for 50 bucks, lol. Maybe...we'll see.
Like I said, I designed the experiment so that as many people as possible could do it.That's not too bad really. Time flies. I just inherited a big house and it has a few empty rooms. This is starting to sound feasible. I doubt I'm going anywhere soon.
Sounds like she tried to do a saltwater tank without doing research first. Saltwater tanks, unlike the freshwater tanks I am setting up, are notoriously difficult to maintain. I'd also bet she didn't cycle the tank properly either; before dumping in a bunch of fish, you're supposed to actually have a couple "disposable ones" in the tank while the tank cycles. Tanks that have never been cycled before will go through phases in which bacteria that produce toxic chemicals appear, followed later by bacteria which actually help serve as natural filters. It takes usually 6-8 weeks to cycle a tank, and during this time frame, one must take special care to perform chemical tests on the water, do frequent water changes, and watch the behavior of the test fish to make sure the water never gets too toxic. Plus, even in a cycled tank, you can't just dump new fish in. If the mineral content of the water of the tank doesn't match what those fish were raised in, they can die from the difference in osmotic pressure. Thus, the bag they traveled in should be set in the water, and water from the tank gradually added into the bag over the course of a couple hours. That way, they don't die from the shock (this goes for the disposable test fish too, of course).
If it's at least 30 gallons, you could just use dividers to make that one tank contain the control, experimental, and overflow groups by itself.
Like I said, I designed the experiment so that as many people as possible could do it.
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