Evolution clearly described in the Bible!

[Papias]

Hey, in case anyone didn't notice it buried in a thread in another subforum, evolution is clearly described in the Bible - not in Genesis, but in the book of Wisdom:

Wisdom 19:19

" Look at what happened! Land animals took to the water, and swimming creatures came up onto the land."

How could we TE'ers need any better support than this?

Papias

 

[Hentenza]

The book of wisdom is a deuterocanonical book which is in dispute as being inspired. Genesis tells us that God created a mature earth which the book of wisdom seems to contradict. I'll stick with Genesis.

 

[Dark_Lite]

The book of wisdom is a deuterocanonical book which is in dispute as being inspired.

Not for the majority of Christianity.

Anyway, regarding this topic: the Bible is not a science textbook. Reading too much science (or what someone thinks is science) into the Bible can produce disastrous results. See: the odd scientific hypotheses that creationists come up with to rationalize YECism.

 

[Hentenza]

Not for the majority of Christianity.

Argumentum ad populum?

 

[Mallon]

Not a fan of corcordism, no matter whether it can be twisted to read evolution into scripture.

 

[Papias]

Dark lite & Mallon-

Yes, I know. I'm not attaching a lot of significance to it, but it was interesting to see this because I was unaware of it, it is a neat fit, and I'll be curious in the future to see what fundies say about it (other than denying the scripture of most Christians in the world).

Papias

 

[shernren]

That chapter of Wisdom (fairly lousy translation here) is giving a rabbinic exegesis on the events that happened just before and during the Exodus.

19:17. For while the elements are changed in themselves, as in an instrument the sound of the quality is changed, yet all keep their sound: which may clearly be perceived by the very sight.

19:18. For the things of the land were turned into things of the water: and the things that before swam in the water passed upon the land.

19:19. The fire had power in water above its own virtue, and the water forgot its quenching nature.

19:20. On the other side, the flames wasted not the flesh of corruptible animals walking therein, neither did they melt that good food, which was apt to melt as ice. For in all things thou didst magnify thy people, O Lord, and didst honour them, and didst not despise them, but didst assist them at all times, and in every place.

Basic idea seems to be that the intrinsic, underlying reality is that God takes care of His people, while what we observe (land things staying on the land, watery things staying in the water) is secondary. In a pinch, where God deems it necessary or beneficial, He will overturn the natural order of things to save His people. Indeed the chapter earlier refers to frogs and quail coming up from the sea onto the land in great masses - the "things of the water becoming things of the land"? - while alluding to the great drowning of the army of Egypt during their pursuit of Israel through the Red Sea, which might fit the "things of the land becoming things of the water".

It's cute, but trying to see in it a presaging of the theory of evolution would be exegetically irresponsible.

 

[lucaspa]

Hey, in case anyone didn't notice it buried in a thread in another subforum, evolution is clearly described in the Bible - not in Genesis, but in the book of Wisdom:

Wisdom 19:19

" Look at what happened! Land animals took to the water, and swimming creatures came up onto the land."

How could we TE'ers need any better support than this?

Papias

I'm going to agree with Shernen. You omitted context!

"17 And they were struck with blindness, as those others had been at the portals of the just- When, surrounded by yawning darkness, each sought the entrance of his own gate.
18 For the elements, in variable harmony among themselves, like strings of the harp, produce new melody, while the flow of music steadily persists. And this can be perceived exactly from a review of what took place.
19 For land creatures were changed into water creatures, and those that swam went over on to the land.
20 Fire in water maintained its own strength, and water forgot its quenching nature;
21 Flames, by contrast, neither consumed the flesh of the perishable animals that went about in them, nor melted the icelike, quick-melting kind of ambrosial food. "

So, you want to explain that water did not quench fire? Is that new chemistry? Or would you like to claim that it is talking about white phosphorus explosives or napalm?

Like Shernen said, terrible exegesis.

 

[lucaspa]

Genesis tells us that God created a mature earth which the book of wisdom seems to contradict. I'll stick with Genesis.

And why do you ignore God's other major book? Why do you stick with Genesis and ignore what God has written in the Book of Creation?

"To conclude, therefore, let no man out of a weak conceit of sobriety, or an ill-applied moderation, think or maintain, that a man can search too far or be too well studied in the book of God's word, or in the book of God's works; divinity or philosophy [science]; but rather let men endeavour an endless progress or proficience in both." Bacon: Advancement of Learning

 

[chrisnu]

For those who hold the book of Wisdom to be part of the Old Testament canon, does not this passage create some tension with evolution:

"Do not invite death by the error of your life, or bring on destruction by the works of your hands; because God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. For he created all things so that they might exist; the generative forces of the world are wholesome, and there is no destructive poison in them, and the dominion of Hades is not on earth." Wisdom 1:12-14

It seems to me that if God used evolution, He created death, and therefore sees it as good, which seems to contradict this passage.

 

[lucaspa]

For those who hold the book of Wisdom to be part of the Old Testament canon, does not this passage create some tension with evolution:

"Do not invite death by the error of your life, or bring on destruction by the works of your hands; because God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. For he created all things so that they might exist; the generative forces of the world are wholesome, and there is no destructive poison in them, and the dominion of Hades is not on earth." Wisdom 1:12-14

It seems to me that if God used evolution, He created death, and therefore sees it as good, which seems to contradict this passage.

1. When the Bible speaks of death in this manner, it is speaking of spiritual death, not physical death.

2. Yes, God created physical death. This is seen in Genesis 1:27-29 where God gives food to the various animals and people. Why do these need food? To keep them from starving. To death.

3. God uses physical death for good things throughout the Bible. In Genesis God uses the sacrificial physical death of animals as part of worship. In Exodus, the liberation of the Hebrews from bondage is accomplished thru the death of the firstborn of Egypt and the Egyptian army at the Red Sea. Israel is established thru the deaths of the Caananites, and the kingdom of David is established by the deaths of Philistines. Our salvation is accomplished by the physical death of Jesus.

4. If you spend time listening to the elderly, death is "good". There seems to come a time in life when people simply do not want to go on. At that point, death is welcome.

 

[Papias]

chrisnu wrote:

It seems to me that if God used evolution, He created death, and therefore sees it as good, which seems to contradict this passage.

Lucaspa is right, apparent contradictions (compare, for example, Is 45:7, which says that God creates evil (in the KJV, or "disaster" in other Bibles) need to be looked at for a deeper meaning.

Death is a part of God's creation. Without death there could be no children, and we agree that children are a gift from God, right? Well, death is part of that same gift.

Papias