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Evolution - and their take over/destruction of science

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Skreeper

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I used to believe that we lived on a globe spinning, twisting and twirling through a cold dark vacuum called space, and the only evidence of that, was the globe they shown me in school, and later all the NASA CGI-artist rendered images of Star wars planets named after Greek Deities like Mars, Venus, Jupiter etc.

Oh boy, next thing you're gonna tell us you believe the earth is flat and the moon landing was a hoax.
 
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Jimmy D

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But no, .. none of the 8.2 million scientists alive today is even looking for actual speciation which would prove Evolution scientifically, instead of blindly rely on prearranged, and rearranged fossils lined up to match their Religious preconceived notions.
Why?

Er, that's not even remotely true.

We can be very specific about the details of process of speciation in certain populations which have been extensively studied, for example.....

What Darwin's Finches Can Teach Us about the Evolutionary Origin and Regulation of Biodiversity | BioScience | Oxford Academic

Darwin's finches on the Galápagos Islands are particularly suitable for asking evolutionary questions about adaptation and the multiplication of species: how these processes happen and how to interpret them. All 14 species of Darwin's finches are closely related, having been derived from a common ancestor 2 million to 3 million years ago.

...........

Populations of the same species occur on different islands, and in some cases they have different ecologies. This allows us to investigate the reasons for their divergence. Closely related species occur together on the same island and differ. This allows us to investigate the nature of the reproductive barrier between them and the question of how and why species stay apart. Thus, considering populations across the entire archipelago, we can see all stages of the speciation process, from start to finish, at the same time.

.............

Speciation is completed when two populations that have diverged in allopatry can coexist with little or no interbreeding. Medium ground finches and cactus finches occupy different ecological niches, although their diets overlap. The ecological differences presumably permit coexistence in sympatry, in an environment (e.g., Daphne Major) whose food supply fluctuates in abundance and composition. To paraphrase David Lack (1947), the species are ecologically isolated through niche differences that evolved by natural selection in allopatry. The differences may have been enhanced by selection in sympatry, thereby reducing interspecific competition for food. But how do the species maintain coexistence without interbreeding? What are the differences that keep them reproductively isolated, and how did the differences evolve?

..............


The radiation began when the initial species split into two lineages of Certhidea warbler finches (figure 8) after the initial pathway had been taken. One group of populations (Certhidea olivacea) inhabits moist upland forest, and the other group (Certhidea fusca) occupies lower habitats on other, mainly low, islands. Remarkably, despite their long separation, the two groups have retained similar mate recognition systems, and for that reason we refer to them as lineages and not species .

.............


One of the warbler finch lineages gave rise to all other finch species. Early products of the diversification were the vegetarian finch (Platyspiza crassirostris), the Cocos finch (Pinaroloxias inornata) on either Galápagos or Cocos Island (Grant and Grant 2002b), and the sharp-beaked ground finch (G. difficilis). The most recent products were a group of ground finch species (Geospiza) and a group of tree finch species (Camarhynchus and Cactospiza) (figure 8).

...............


According to the standard allopatric model, speciation begins with the establishment of a new population, continues with the divergence of that population from its parent population, and is completed when members of two diverged populations can coexist in sympatry without interbreeding. We stand a virtually negligible chance of observing the whole process under natural circumstances. Nevertheless, it is possible to make relevant observations in nature of all steps in the process. We have described the strong role played by environmental change at each of the three steps in the speciation of Darwin's finches.

.......................................................

We have also observed examples of speciation in the fossil record, especially in locations that are favourable to fossilization....

Evolution of the horse - Wikipedia

During the Eocene, an Eohippus species (most likely Eohippus angustidens) branched out into various new types of Equidae. Thousands of complete, fossilized skeletons of these animals have been found in the Eocene layers of North American strata.

In the early-to-middle Eocene, Eohippus smoothly transitioned into Orohippus through a gradual series of changes

In response to the changing environment, the then-living species of Equidae also began to change. In the late Eocene, they began developing tougher teeth and becoming slightly larger and leggier, allowing for faster running speeds in open areas, and thus for evading predators in nonwooded areas

In the early Oligocene, Mesohippus was one of the more widespread mammals in North America. It walked on three toes on each of its front and hind feet (the first and fifth toes remained, but were small and not used in walking). The third toe was stronger than the outer ones, and thus more weighted; the fourth front toe was diminished to a vestigial nub.

Mesohippus was slightly larger than Epihippus, about 610 mm (24 in) at the shoulder. Its back was less arched, and its face, snout, and neck were somewhat longer. It had significantly larger cerebral hemispheres, and had a small, shallow depression on its skull called a fossa, which in modern horses is quite detailed.


Miohippus was significantly larger than its predecessors, and its ankle joints had subtly changed. Its facial fossa was larger and deeper, and it also began to show a variable extra crest in its upper cheek teeth, a trait that became a characteristic feature of equine teeth.


Etc, etc until we find the modern horse fossils which date back about 3.5 million years.

.......................................

We can observe speciation unfolding in real time...

Speciation in real time

The Central European blackcap spends its summers in Germany and Austria and, until the 1960s, had spent its winters in balmy Spain. About 50 years ago, however, backyard bird feeding became popular in Britain. With a ready supply of food waiting for them in Britain, blackcaps that happened to carry genesthat caused them to migrate northwest, instead of southwest to Spain, were able to survive and return to their summer breeding grounds in central Europe. Over time, the proportion of the population carrying northwest-migrating genes has increased. Today, about 10% of the population winters in Britain instead of Spain.

This change in migration pattern has led to a shift in mate availability. The northwest route is shorter than the southwest route, so the northwest-migrating birds get back to Germany sooner each summer. Since blackcaps choose a mate for the season when they arrive at the breeding grounds, the birds tend to mate with others that follow the same migration route.

In December of 2009, researchers from Germany and Canada confirmed that these migration and mating shifts have led to subtle differences between the two parts of the population. The splinter group has evolved rounder wings and narrower, longer beaks than their southward-flying brethren. The researchers hypothesize that both of these traits evolved via natural selection. Pointier wings are favored in birds that must travel longer distances, and rounder wings, which increase maneuverability, are favored when distance is less of an issue — as it is for the northwest migrators. Changes in beak size may be related to the food available to each sub-population: fruit for birds wintering in Spain and seeds and suet from garden feeders for birds wintering in Britain. The northwest migrators' narrower, longer beaks may allow them to better take advantage of all the different sorts of foods they wind up eating in the course of a year. These differences have evolved in just 30 generations and could signify the beginning of a speciation event.


.........................
 
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Jimmy D

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I can show a universe without gravity, simply by density and buoyancy. The only place gravitational waves exist is within this science fiction created BB-universe story, confirmed by other "Believers" of this Religion through mathematics. It's easy to manipulate math to fit any model.

So you are saying that you can mathematically demonstrate your model of a universe with out gravity?

Please do.
 
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Jimmy D

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1. prove that either biological or cosmological Evolution is based on "science"?

Is this not science? This research applies Evidence of natural selection and yields practical results.....

Statistical power to detect disease variants can be increased by weighting candidates by their evidence of natural selection. To demonstrate that this theoretical idea works in practice, we performed an association study of 10 putative resistance variants in 471 severe malaria cases and 474 controls from the Luo in Kenya. We replicated associations at HBB (P=.0008) and CD36 (P=.03) but also showed that the same variants are unusually differentiated in frequency between the Luo and Yoruba (who historically have been exposed to malaria) and the Masai and Kikuyu (who have not been exposed). This empirically demonstrates that combining association analysis with evidence of natural selection can increase power to detect risk variants by orders of magnitude—up to P=.000018 for HBB and P=.00043 for CD36.

Combining Evidence of Natural Selection with Association Analysis Increases Power to Detect Malaria-Resistance Variants - ScienceDirect


.........................................................

How about this? Science?

Genes evolving under strong purifying selection are predicted to include those involved in essential mechanisms of host defense, variation in which should lead to severe disorders.16 This prediction is supported by genome-wide data, because Mendelian disease genes are enriched in signals of purifying selection.8,9,17 Conversely, genes evolving adaptively—through positive or balancing selection (e.g., HBB [MIM: 141900], DARC [MIM: 613665], FUT2 [MIM: 182100], the HLA locus genes, ABO blood group genes, and TRIM5 [MIM: 608487])—are usually more permissive to functional variation, which can exert a protective effect against infections.2,4,7,18 These signals of adaptive evolution in immune-related genes, tending to be recent and population specific, further emphasize the important role of pathogens in local adaptation.

Besides the occurrence of novel mutations, functional variants transmitted through admixture represent another potential source of adaptive variation. Recent data provided evidence that 1%–6% of modern Eurasian genomes were inherited from ancient hominins, such as Neandertals or Denisovans,19–21with specific genomic regions presenting up to 64% of Neandertal ancestry.22In the context of immunity, there is increasing evidence to suggest that modern humans have acquired advantageous variation through admixture with ancient hominins, as documented by candidate gene approaches for HLA class I genes, STAT2 (MIM: 600556), or the OAS gene cluster (MIM: 164350, 603350).23–25


Genomic Signatures of Selective Pressures and Introgression from Archaic Hominins at Human Innate Immunity Genes - ScienceDirect

..........................................

Or this, still not science?

As modern humans dispersed from Africa throughout the world, they encountered and interbred with archaic hominins, including Neanderthals and Denisovans [1, 2]. Although genome-scale maps of introgressed sequences have been constructed [3–6], considerable gaps in knowledge remain about the functional, phenotypic, and evolutionary significance of archaic hominin DNA that persists in present-day individuals. Here, we describe a comprehensive set of analyses that identified 126 high-frequency archaic haplotypes as putative targets of adaptive introgression in geographically diverse populations. These loci are enriched for immune-related genes (such as OAS1/2/3, TLR1/6/10, and TNFAIP3) and also encompass genes (including OCA2 and BNC2) that influence skin pigmentation phenotypes. Furthermore, we leveraged existing and novel large-scale gene expression datasets to show many positively selected archaic haplotypes act as expression quantitative trait loci (eQTLs), suggesting that modulation of transcript abundance was a common mechanism facilitating adaptive introgression. Our results demonstrate that hybridization between modern and archaic hominins provided an important reservoir of advantageous alleles that enabled adaptation to out-of-Africa environments.

Archaic Hominin Admixture Facilitated Adaptation to Out-of-Africa Environments - ScienceDirect

............................................

Or this.....

Toward a Phylogenetic Classification of Primates Based on DNA Evidence Complemented by Fossil Evidence - ScienceDirect

maybe this one?....

Phylogenetic relations of humans and African apes from DNA sequences in the psi-eta-globin region

I could go on and paste tens of thousands of links to scientific research, please note that the first link I posted actually yields practical results that could be used to improve the lives of many people. If you still think that the Theory of Evolution is not based on science then I can only suggest that you are (a) confused about what science actually is or (b) so entrenched in your world view that your ability to think objectively is crippled by cognitive dissonance.
 
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Zoii

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Hello @Zoii
When I step out of bed in the morning, I have 61 years of evidence to back me up that I will step on solid ground.
When I get in my car, I have over 45 years of solid evidence with substance that my car will get me to work.
For anyone to make it through even one day with faith that's backed by no evidence would be a nightmare. No one lives like that, maybe only those with mental illnesses.
I used to believe that we lived on a globe spinning, twisting and twirling through a cold dark vacuum called space, and the only evidence of that, was the globe they shown me in school, and later all the NASA CGI-artist rendered images of Star wars planets named after Greek Deities like Mars, Venus, Jupiter etc.

As I said in my O.P. the older and far more accurate (and reasonable. common sense) definition of 'faith' comes from the most popular, and most used book in human history, the Bible. It defines faith like this:
Faith:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If you don't have evidence with enough substance that you can get out of bed, I'd say; don't get up.
No one should live their life even for one day with such a cold and scary definition of faith as one backed by no evidence. This Darwinism/ Evolutionary definition of faith fits in well with the cold, unplanned, chaotic description of how the human ape came into existence from a wet rock partially submerged in salty water (primordial soup).



The Big-bang model describes how the universe expanded from a very high-density and high-temperature state. Sometimes people find it hard to understand why the Big Bang is not a black hole. After all, the density of matter in the first fraction of a second was much higher than that found in any star, and dense matter is supposed to curve Spacetime strongly. At sufficient density there must be matter contained within a region smaller than the Schwarzschild radius for its mass. Nevertheless, the Big Bang manages to avoid being trapped inside a black hole of its own making and paradoxically the space near the singularity is actually flat rather than curving tightly.

Please show me how ANY of the above description of the pre-BB-universe came from observation, much less was ever replicated!?



I can show a universe without gravity, simply by density and buoyancy. The only place gravitational waves exist is within this science fiction created BB-universe story, confirmed by other "Believers" of this Religion through mathematics. It's easy to manipulate math to fit any model.



We have over eight million living species that, according to Darwinists have been evolving for over four billion years, that have speciated millions of times since they were amoeba, and you want to rely on carbon dating and fragments of skull & bones (fossils) infected with God-only-knows what kind of deformities, .. dug up from graves?
Evolution is an ongoing process, we humans are labeled as evolving apes, surely they could find a population of human common ancestors on one continent in a very different environment and diet who may have evolved to a point that they can no longer reproduce with human apes on a far away continent, in a modern civilized environment with very different diet, .. don't you think?

But no, .. none of the 8.2 million scientists alive today is even looking for actual speciation which would prove Evolution scientifically, instead of blindly rely on prearranged, and rearranged fossils lined up to match their Religious preconceived notions.
Why?
Because it is easier to prove a religious story by manipulating, and arranging fossils, and Peleoartist CGI rendered paintings from bone fragments to fit their doctrines.

What is that, what species is it?
"We don't know, but we are certain it is our Common Ancestor".
This was a long answer you provided so I'll confine my answer. Re BB. The theorem came about via Einsteins theorems and coalesced to BB by other notables. If the theorem was correct there should be some observable phenomena. background microwave noise and gravitational waves being notable observations that have been measured
 
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USincognito

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This thread really should be in the proper subforum.
Creation & Evolution

Should a religion like Darwinism be allowed to take over and destroy the core meaning of science, including the word faith?

I don't know what "Darwinism" is supposed to mean, but there are no propositions in science that qualify as a religion.

The Godless Religion Darwinism has kidnapped the word "science" through deception, trickery and magic, and made it synonymous with the word 'evolution', and continues to redefine its definition in support of their own godless doctrines.

Again I have no idea what "Darwinism" is supposed to mean, but evolution is a scientific fact (evolution happened and continues to happen) explained by a scientific theory. Apart from germ theory of disease, it is the most supported theory in science.

in its 1,700 years existence has allowed tens of thousands of different denominations to derive from the RCC, which itself is the founder of the Big Bang Evolution theory.

Even most Christians don't realize the intellectual and theological heart of early Christendom was in North Africa and Turkey - where what would become the Orthodox held sway.

In this discussion, I ask Darwinians, who support and proselytize their BB-Evolution doctrines to;

1. prove that either biological or cosmological Evolution is based on "science"?
2. show why the word 'faith' can only mean 'blind faith'?

I don't know what a "Darwinian" is, but the answer to your two questions is:
1. Nothing is ever proven in science, but evolution and Big Bang Theory are supported by evidence.
2. A red herring I'm not going to waste my time on.
 
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MyOwnSockPuppet

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I'll just leave this here:

sciencevsfaith.png
 
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Paulos23

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and evolution isnt base on faith too?

Nope, it is based on observation and evidence.

There was so much evidence for it that Darwin was beaten by someone else publishing on it. It was only by showing a lifetime of work on the theory that he got credit.
 
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bhsmte

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Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked

Should a religion like Darwinism be allowed to take over and destroy the core meaning of science, including the word faith?

The Godless Religion Darwinism has kidnapped the word "science" through deception, trickery and magic, and made it synonymous with the word 'evolution', and continues to redefine its definition in support of their own godless doctrines.

It has also redefined the word "faith" to mean "blind faith" which is what all Religions require;

Faith: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine


By reinterpreting the word "faith" into just a religious concept based on nothing but blind faith (see synonyms of faith above)

Actual, Biblical definition of
Faith: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

True faith requires evidence with substance, while Religion requires 'blind faith'

in its 1,700 years existence has allowed tens of thousands of different denominations to derive from the RCC, which itself is the founder of the Big Bang Evolution theory.

Evolution:
1. the process by which different kinds of living organisms are thought to have developed and diversified from earlier forms during the history of the earth.
synonyms: Darwinism, natural selection
2. the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form.
"the forms of written languages undergo constant evolution"
synonyms: development, advancement, growth, rise, progress, expansion, unfolding
The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model for the universe from the earliest known periods through its subsequent large-scale evolution.

Science:
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

In this discussion, I ask Darwinians, who support and proselytize their BB-Evolution doctrines to;

1. prove that either biological or cosmological Evolution is based on "science"?
2. show why the word 'faith' can only mean 'blind faith'?

Scripture and preaching in a science forum, demonstrates some desperation.
 
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klutedavid

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Ive always thought there was room for science and religion to cohabit. The Big bang which many Christians find so contentious I believe works well with the scriptures in Genesis.

There was nothing. Then there was a singularity which with rapid expansion evolved to mass, then stars ..."let their be light"
To make the claim that there existed a singularity, is not a claim that is subject to a scientific test or even to falsification. The claim of the existence of a singularity, is a claim that an entity existed before the natural laws of science even existed. This claim should be rejected by the scientific community. Science is defined as observation, measurement, repeatable experiments, hard evidence supporting a valid theory through objective agreement.

Science cannot progress unless an idea can be tested and is subject to being falsified.

Any claim, theory, hypothesis, that cannot be tested is not in the domain of science.

The Big Bang as a scientific explanation is mere science fiction.

The Big Bang at the initial phase (singularity) is undefined, unbounded, not finite, thus cannot be measured or tested!
 
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HitchSlap

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I noted that, there exists abundant evidence for the death and resurrection of the Christ.

You're probably a new Christian with all the fervor of a new convert, so I don't expect you to know the reality of the evidence. It sounds like you may have just finished Lee Strobel's (not a scholar) nonsense book. The fact is; there is no contemporary record of either the death or resurrection of a Jesus. All four gospels were written by anonymous authors, several decades after he died, in a language Jesus never spoke, from countries Jesus never visited, and all four gospel accounts are recorded in third person narrative - not as eyewitnesses, let alone personal friends.
 
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klutedavid

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You're probably a new Christian with all the fervor of a new convert, so I don't expect you to know the reality of the evidence. It sounds like you may have just finished Lee Strobel's (not a scholar) nonsense book. The fact is; there is no contemporary record of either the death or resurrection of a Jesus. All four gospels were written by anonymous authors, several decades after he died, in a language Jesus never spoke, from countries Jesus never visited, and all four gospel accounts are recorded in third person narrative - not as eyewitnesses, let alone personal friends.
Luke was a travelling companion of Paul, the apostle Paul was the last person that saw Jesus. Luke being a travelling companion of Paul would no doubt have encountered, some of the more than 500 witnesses of the risen Christ.

Scholars' Verdict

Historicity of Jesus
Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain. (wikipedia)

Clifford Herschel Moore, professor at Harvard University, remarked of Jesus' historicity, "Christianity knew its Saviour and Redeemer not as some god whose history was contained in a mythical faith. ... Jesus was a historical not a mythical being. No remote or foul myth obtruded itself on the Christian believer; his faith was founded on positive, historical, and acceptable facts." [Quoted in McDowell, 193]

Dr. Michael Grant of Cambridge has written, "To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ-myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus.' [Michael Grant, Jesus (London: Rigel, 2004)]

Yale historian Jaroslav Pelikan declared, "Regardless of what anyone may personally think or believe about him, Jesus of Nazareth has been the dominant figure in the history of Western culture for almost twenty centuries. ... It is from his birth that most of the human race dates its calendars, it is by his name that millions curse and in his name that millions pray."18
[Jaroslav Pelikan, Jesus through the Centuries (New York: Harper & Row, 1987)]
 
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HitchSlap

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Luke was a travelling companion of Paul, the apostle Paul was the last person that saw Jesus. Luke being a travelling companion of Paul would no doubt have encountered, some of the more than 500 witnesses of the risen Christ.

Scholars' Verdict

Historicity of Jesus
Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain. (wikipedia)

Clifford Herschel Moore, professor at Harvard University, remarked of Jesus' historicity, "Christianity knew its Saviour and Redeemer not as some god whose history was contained in a mythical faith. ... Jesus was a historical not a mythical being. No remote or foul myth obtruded itself on the Christian believer; his faith was founded on positive, historical, and acceptable facts." [Quoted in McDowell, 193]

Dr. Michael Grant of Cambridge has written, "To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ-myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus.' [Michael Grant, Jesus (London: Rigel, 2004)]

Yale historian Jaroslav Pelikan declared, "Regardless of what anyone may personally think or believe about him, Jesus of Nazareth has been the dominant figure in the history of Western culture for almost twenty centuries. ... It is from his birth that most of the human race dates its calendars, it is by his name that millions curse and in his name that millions pray."18
[Jaroslav Pelikan, Jesus through the Centuries (New York: Harper & Row, 1987)]
No scholar believes that the gospels were actually penned by Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. That's why they're titled The Gospel According To...

Mark is the first account written, and has significantly less information than Mt. and Lk. John's book is completely different than the other three, and paints a completely different Jesus character, almost unrecognizable from the other gospels.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Luke was a travelling companion of Paul, the apostle Paul was the last person that saw Jesus. Luke being a travelling companion of Paul would no doubt have encountered, some of the more than 500 witnesses of the risen Christ.
How much really is there about Jesus the man, his life, and his deeds, in Paul's writings?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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That's what it means, having faith in Jesus, trusting Jesus.

The convenient re-defining of faith was a tricky trick.
Important to study where words come from, to know what you're talking about.
That concept of faith probably comes from Hebrews 11:1.

More literally, it would be blind faith - belief without evidence or against the evidence.
 
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Steve Petersen

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To make the claim that there existed a singularity, is not a claim that is subject to a scientific test or even to falsification. The claim of the existence of a singularity, is a claim that an entity existed before the natural laws of science even existed. This claim should be rejected by the scientific community. Science is defined as observation, measurement, repeatable experiments, hard evidence supporting a valid theory through objective agreement.

Science cannot progress unless an idea can be tested and is subject to being falsified.

Any claim, theory, hypothesis, that cannot be tested is not in the domain of science.

The Big Bang as a scientific explanation is mere science fiction.

The Big Bang at the initial phase (singularity) is undefined, unbounded, not finite, thus cannot be measured or tested!

You are just wrong. A good theory can make predictions about what we might find if it were true. If the predicted elements are found, it strengthens the theory.

What predictions does creationism make in the realm of physical sciences?
 
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klutedavid

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No scholar believes that the gospels were actually penned by Matthew, Mark, Luke & John. That's why they're titled The Gospel According To...

Mark is the first account written, and has significantly less information than Mt. and Lk. John's book is completely different than the other three, and paints a completely different Jesus character, almost unrecognizable from the other gospels.
Do you reject the scholarship outlining the historicity of Jesus Christ?
 
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