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Evolution and the Bible

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Apollo Rhetor

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It's probably time I ask this question...

I've been reading recently how TE's believe that Scripture and evolution are compatible, and how (in their view) the objections against Darwinism are much the same as the objections against a spherical earth or heliocentrisism - based on a flawed interpretation of Scripture.

So, here's the big question: How do you TE's reconcile Darwinism with all the problems in Scriptures?
Undoubtedly you will say there are no problems - but to me they are problems, so I'd like to see them answered. If possible don't give links to outside sources, I want answers from people that I can ask further questions of. Also, with the way I'm feeling at the moment (excessively sleepy), if I find a URL is really long, the chances of me reading it approach 0.

Thanks
 

herev

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hehe, but if we don't see any problems, our answer looks like this:
Here's how we answer all the conlicts (which I'm assuming you're talking about) between theistic evolution and the Bible

1.







Thanks for your patience. WE've listed every one with answers--and references, too.
 
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herev

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tyreth said:
Very nice, thanks :)

But your response does answer some of my questions. If others have difficulties too then I will describe in detail some of the problems I see.
WEll, I'm happy to oblige you. Guess you, too, are good at reading between the lines;) -seriously, give me an example, and i'll do my best, but since even you said Undoubtedly you will say there are no problems - then I don't understand what you are looking for.
It's probably just me--since your posts are usually quite logical.
Sorry
Tommy
 
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gluadys

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tyreth said:
It's probably time I ask this question...

So, here's the big question: How do you TE's reconcile Darwinism with all the problems in Scriptures?
Undoubtedly you will say there are no problems - but to me they are problems, so I'd like to see them answered. If possible don't give links to outside sources, I want answers from people that I can ask further questions of. Also, with the way I'm feeling at the moment (excessively sleepy), if I find a URL is really long, the chances of me reading it approach 0.

Thanks

As herev says, you will have to be a little specific about the problems. I usually find they result from holding on to a literalist point of view while trying to wrap one's head around a non-literalist view.

Since TEs don't do that, we don't necessarily see what problems you are speaking of.

To give an example. I forget what thread it is on. Not sure if it is even in this forum. But a young YEC thought he had a sure-fire refutation of Day-Age OEC. The days and nights would each have to be hundreds of years long and everything on earth would fry or freeze in turn.

He was taking a literal understanding of solar days & nights and applying it to day=age. Of course, OECs don't assume extraordinarily long days and nights in order to have only six of them. So this YECs problem is non-existent for an OEC.

In the same way, some of the things you see as problems may simply not appear on our horizon.
 
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Apollo Rhetor

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GodSaves said:
If I may ask a simple question. Did God create physical death as part of creation before the fall of man?
Don't mean to sound rude, but you've asked this question in another thread and I'd like this thread to not get sidetracked.
Edit: Your point is a good one, in my opinion - but we'll get to it soon.

As for comments by others (gluadys, herev), I will explain then problems I see. I'm not talking about whether a day is literal or not. It is not inconceivable for me to believe, for example, that the rocks and mountains of the earth are billions of years old. I believe (as a YEC) that the earth is young, 6000 years...but I'm not bound to that.

Soon I'll have time and explain exactly what problems I have.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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GodSaves said:
If I may ask a simple question. Did God create physical death as part of creation before the fall of man?

Yes. Physical death is an inherent part of the ecosystem God created. Without it, life as God created it on earth, would be impossible.
 
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Vance

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Yes, physical death was part of God's Creation from the beginning.

I don't think anything in Scripture contradicts this. The death God spoke of regarding the tree of life was spiritual death (loss of communion and separation from God), as was Paul's later reference. This must be so, since God's redemptive gift of His Son was meant as a re-binding of that communion which was lost by Man's sinful and selfish nature. If the death referred to was physical death, then Jesus' sacrifice meant nothing since we all still physically die. By accepting the redemptive gift, we gain not a reprieve from physical death, but a reprieve from spiritual death.

We all have eternal life already. The only question is where we are going to spend it.
 
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gluadys

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GodSaves said:
If I may ask a simple question. Did God create physical death as part of creation before the fall of man?


Yes. Scripturally this is indicated by God's command to all forms of life to "be fruitful and multiply" and by the provision of food.

The production of new generations requires the death of older generations. And nothing can be eaten (even plants) which has not died.
 
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herev

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Vance said:
Yes, physical death was part of God's Creation from the beginning.
Agreed here

Vance said:
Yes, physical death was part of God's Creation from the beginning.

I don't think anything in Scripture contradicts this.
agreed again

Vance said:
The death God spoke of regarding the tree of life was spiritual death (loss of communion and separation from God), as was Paul's later reference. This must be so, since God's redemptive gift of His Son was meant as a re-binding of that communion which was lost by Man's sinful and selfish nature. If the death referred to was physical death, then Jesus' sacrifice meant nothing since we all still physically die. By accepting the redemptive gift, we gain not a reprieve from physical death, but a reprieve from spiritual death.
Here, my friend we TE's will have to disagree. I think our bodies were designed from the very beginning for death, But that could be avoided in God's paradise, which he established for us. The opportunity for eternal physical life was introduced when humanity first developed the ability to conceive of God. and so God planted a garden...I think the Tree of Life was exactly intended to be to sustain us physically. This was God's plan from the beginning when He created us, for us to live eternally with him. But free will was also an important part of the equation. When humanity showed that it no longer wished to Follow God--there were consequences--one of which was the return of physical death (being cast from the garden). I do think Paul was speaking of spiritual death.
My understanding comes from the words to Adam--on this day you will surely die. He didn't die physically that day, but he did die spiritually that day. Two deaths--as Godsaves kept saying to me, but he didn't like my interpretation of that. Adam died spiritually right then--the moment he chose other than God. But physical death was only re-introduced as the eventual end of Adam.
Anywho, that's my take on it. It's my story and I'm stickin' with it!
050.gif

as with other issues surrounding creation, they don't affect my salvation, so let's disagree and show the other side how it's done;) !!!
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Vance said:
We all have eternal life already. The only question is where we are going to spend it.
Agreed with this. Eternal souls were always part of the plan, but I think the orignial intent was to have us live physically forever with Him in the garden. CAll me sentimental, but it just feels right!
 
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herev

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By the way--one more thing. This is also confirmed by Revelation 22. The tree of life is in paradise with God, for those wondering about eternal physical life later. God kicked man out of paradise, which resulted in physical death being RE-instated, but it will again be taken away on the other side
gotta go--check back later
Tommy
 
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Vance

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Yes, that is very possible regarding the "two deaths" approach, and that is probably one of those questions that can not be answered until we can ask face to face (by which point I wonder if we will care!). I just don't see the need to add in the physical death idea when the spiritual seems to fit and answer all the questions.

As you say, the concept of "and you shall surely die" can only be referring to spiritual death since he ate and he did not die that same "day". But more theologically based, if the death he suffered as a result of the Fall was physical, then it can be said that Jesus failed in His redemptive act to regain what was lost at the Fall. We all still die, and will continue to do so until He returns.

So, I look at it from the other end. Jesus came to redeem us from the death we "gained" as a result of the Fall. Jesus is obviously going to be effective in His redemptive act. We still physically die, even if we accept His redemptive gift, so it can not have been physical death that we suffered at the Fall. What we DO gain by acceptance of the redemption is a renewed communion with God, which is an overcoming of spiritual death. So what we lost at the Fall was communion with God, which is spiritual death, and what is regained by salvation is spiritual life.

Added to this the fact that even those who do NOT accept the redemptive gift have the same eternal life as those who accept. The ONLY difference is that one will be still living in spiritual death and the other in spiritual life. There will be no physical life or death difference at all.

Just my two cents. Again, that will be one of those interesting questions when the answers are readily available!
 
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herev

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Vance said:
Yes, that is very possible regarding the "two deaths" approach, and that is probably one of those questions that can not be answered until we can ask face to face (by which point I wonder if we will care!). I just don't see the need to add in the physical death idea when the spiritual seems to fit and answer all the questions.

As you say, the concept of "and you shall surely die" can only be referring to spiritual death since he ate and he did not die that same "day". But more theologically based, if the death he suffered as a result of the Fall was physical, then it can be said that Jesus failed in His redemptive act to regain what was lost at the Fall. We all still die, and will continue to do so until He returns.

So, I look at it from the other end. Jesus came to redeem us from the death we "gained" as a result of the Fall. Jesus is obviously going to be effective in His redemptive act. We still physically die, even if we accept His redemptive gift, so it can not have been physical death that we suffered at the Fall. What we DO gain by acceptance of the redemption is a renewed communion with God, which is an overcoming of spiritual death. So what we lost at the Fall was communion with God, which is spiritual death, and what is regained by salvation is spiritual life.

Added to this the fact that even those who do NOT accept the redemptive gift have the same eternal life as those who accept. The ONLY difference is that one will be still living in spiritual death and the other in spiritual life. There will be no physical life or death difference at all.

Just my two cents. Again, that will be one of those interesting questions when the answers are readily available!
Very reasonable, we'll simply have to wait and see. I respect you for having a different opinioin. God Bless:clap:
 
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GodSaves

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We still physically die, but Jesus viewed physical death as sleeping. Such as the raising of Lazarus, He said he is only sleeping and He is going to wake him.

My view point has been that the Tree of Life was there to sustain life, physical life, like herev said. I agree with that. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden so that they could not eat of the Tree of Life. That was the reason why they couldn't be in there anymore after the fall. I see it that they died physically(and spiritually) that day because they could no longer have access to the Tree of Life. One interesting thing is that one day of the LORD is a thousand days to us, and visa versa. Adam did die that day, if we are too look at it according to the LORD's days. Just a thought.

Our bodies will be raised from their sleeping, or death, in the last days. Jesus taught this as well as Paul. If we are in Christ then we were crucified with Christ, and we were raised up from the dead with Christ. Therefore death has not mastery over us, because our LORD Jesus Christ will raise us up again. So through the LORD we have been saved, spiritually and physically.

When Jesus was resurrected His body was too. Thomas put his fingers in the holes of Jesus' hands and feet and His side. I think that this is a point being made without saying that our bodies too will be resurrected. If physical death was ordained by God I am not sure why our bodies would be resurrected. I would think we would get new bodies, or just be in spirit. I think death is an enemy of God, because in Revelations 22 death is thrown in the lake of fire. When Jesus raised Lazarus, He was troubled in Spirit and wept, even though He knew He would raise him. To me that is not only Him being compassionate (weeping), but also at odds with death.(troubled in spirit)

God Bless
 
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Didaskomenos

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So even reading Genesis 1-2 as history shows that physical death was natural in humans without divine intervention (the Tree of Life) before the Fall. Thanks, GodSaves! That should end one popular objection. But it probably won't.
 
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herev

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Didaskomenos said:
So even reading Genesis 1-2 as history shows that physical death was natural in humans without divine intervention (the Tree of Life) before the Fall. Thanks, GodSaves! That should end one popular objection. But it probably won't.
:scratch:that's what I've been saying, but it hasn't ended anything
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Polycarp1

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We are, in the words of the medieval scholars, "rational animals" -- i.e., creatures with bodies on the same mold as the animals with whom we share this world, but with reason, intellect, and a soul and spirit that can apprehend God and matters spiritual and moral.

I have known a few -- very few -- people whose faith was such that they approached death peacefully, knowing that they were going to a better place. They were at peace with God, their world, and themselves.

Contrast that to our view of death as an evil, to be avoided, etc.

I suspect that what changed with the Fall was not the fact of death, but our feelings toward it. From an assurance that, our mortal lives being past, we would progress to what He had in store for us, we moved into a state of separation from Him and a fear of death as the end. (And do note that there is nothing that says that the interior soul necessarily and automatically survives the death of the body -- everlasting life is supposed to be one of His gifts through the Atonement.)

That, however, is abetting a hijack of tyreth's basic question into the theme of death. So let's take a look at exactly what the problems are.

First, a completely literal reading of Genesis 1 says that God created the world on six successive days. And by working the mathematics of when Adam became father of Seth and so on, we find that He supposedly did this about 2200 years before Jacob died in Egypt. The numbers get a bit hairier after that, but best estimates show that this date is either 4000 years before Jesus's birth or extremely close to that date.

But the overwhelming amount of scientific evidence suggests that the world had things happen at dates enormously farther back than 4000 BC. This stuff can be gotten into in depth elsewhere -- the Open area forum has a lot of material on various events and their dating, and how reliable the dating can be.

However, notice that I mentioned a completely literal reading. And the one thing the first few chapters of Genesis cannot be is literal history in the sense that parts of II Samuel or Acts are -- neither Moses nor the Priestly writer were around to record the events. Unless you accept direct dictatorial inspiration (God saying, "Okay, Moses, now write down, 'In the beginning, I created the heavens and...'"), the best that can be said for this stuff as historical writing is that it is a precis of traditions handed down through the generations from Adam to Moses.

On the other hand, the Bible is full of forms of writing that are not historical repertorial accounts. Jesus tells parables; Ezekiel reports visions; the Song of Solomon is a long poem celebrating marriage. Most scholars think that Jonah and Job are not literal accounts, but inspired "religious historical fiction" describing the lives of, respectively, the reluctant prophet to the Assyrians and the proverbial patriarch who kept his faith through travails -- making, respectively, the points of the universality of God's grace -- He loves even them evil Assyrians that attacked and conquered us -- and the falsehood of the "prosperity gospel" of O.T. times -- the conventional wisdom of Israel that God rewards the righteous with riches in this life, and punishes the evildoers correspondingly, is torn apart and fed through a paper shredder.

Now, a short excursion: George Washington and the cherry tree is a pious falsehood about the man, though throwing a silver dollar across a river is apparently true; Abraham Lincoln and splitting rails happens to be true. But both are preserved because of what they say about the two men's characters. They are story -- and the truth they contain is valid whether or not the historical incident is factual.

Genesis 1 is written in the finest of story style. It uses formulae: "On the __th day, God said, 'Let there be ___.' And there was ___. And God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the __th day." Like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, it uses repetition to bring ideas home memorably. (Tell that story to a little kid, and he'll be giggling and echoing along with you, "And the baby bear's chair/porridge/bed was just right.") And it uses the formulas and repetition to drive home some important points:
  • It is God Himself, not some angel or demiurge, who does the creating.
  • He doesn't "get down in the muck" like some pagan Gods did -- He calls things into existence.
  • He creates by His Word. I trust on a Christian board where people have read the first chapter of John's Gospel, I don't have to spell this one out -- though it was not a part of the Jewish concept, it's important nonetheless, and not merely typologically -- His command is sufficient to make things come into existence, all by itself; He doesn't have to kill a giant and shape mountains and people from its body, for example. The Babylonian God Marduk created by conquering the great sea monster Tiamat; God makes the monsters of the deep. (A lot of the creation story has little "throwaway phrases" like this that are intended to refute the pagan stories and the Babylonian one in particular -- showing God as innately superior to their gods.)
  • He creates sequentially, not all at once but step by step.
  • All that He creates, He calls good. This answers an ongoing weird idea that crops up again and again that the world is somehow evil and that salvation consists in God releasing us from the world. It's His world; He made it, and He called it good.
  • Finally, and vitally important to the Jewish faith, the Sabbath, with its rest and communion between man and God, is an integral part of Creation. We Christians look at the six day story and miss the fact that the story describes seven days -- and on the seventh day, God created the Sabbath. Remember that this is in origin a Jewish story.

Now, if this is true, then the supposedly factual detail is secondary to the points that were the reason behind the story -- the important concepts of what God did and what He thought of it -- and need not be read as literal. The point to the six days is to create the seventh day, the Sabbath, and to show that God didn't create all at once, but in stages.

Now, a part of what He created were the natural phenomena that behave in describable and predictable ways. The Sun will come up somewhere around 6:00 AM and set somewhere around 6:00 PM; if you let go of a rock, it drops to the ground; put things in a fire, and they burn, and the fire provides you heat and light.

So it makes perfect sense for God to have put the world in motion to develop according to His Plan, and then let each step work out according to that Plan, by natural means. And we need not read the story literally to believe in its truth -- in fact, focusing on the six-day account obscures the more important truths that the story conveys -- because the point why it's in Scripture the important thing, not the detail. Story doesn't have to be factually accurate to contain important truths -- just look at Jesus's parables to see that proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 
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