Evolution and Christianity

[Crusadar]

"Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint — and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it — the [bible] literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.[and further on]... evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity. " Ruse, M., How evolution became a religion: creationists correct? National Post, pp. B1,B3,B7 May 13, 2000.

Yes, evolution would be true. If you wish to believe that God does not exist. But we know that God does by what He has done in our lives. So it is no more than a fantastic myth to true believers and an alternative faith to non believers. Theistic evolutionists, well they are simply caught in the middle - for they are simply unsure of which side to be on.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Yes, evolution would be true. If you wish to believe that God does not exist. But we know that God does by what He has done in our lives. So it is no more than a fantastic myth to true believers and an alternative faith to non believers. Theistic evolutionists, well they are simply caught in the middle - for they are simply unsure of which side to be on.

Could you be more insulting if you really tried?

"fantastic myth to true believers" - so only YECs are "true believers" - the rest of us aren't really Christians. How dare you, you self-righteous, arrogant, spiritually proud, religious snob?

"unsure of which side to be on" - the side of truth and of reality. The side of accepting what God has told us through Scripture and through the Creation itself.

 

[Crusadar]

Careful your true spiritual fruits are showing through karl. I was commenting on the quote, not calling anyone anything. Of course why are you taking it so literal, I thought you are not a literalist. And besides I am not the one getting all steamed up about it.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Careful your true spiritual fruits are showing through karl. I was commenting on the quote, not calling anyone anything. Of course why are you taking it so literal, I thought you are not a literalist. And besides I am not the one getting all steamed up about it.

Don't be ridiculous. Your meaning was perfectly clear.

If you stir up a hornets' nest, don't act the innocent when you get stung on the [blasted language filter] backside.

 

[Crusadar]

Don't be ridiculous. Your meaning was perfectly clear.

If you stir up a hornets' nest, don't act the innocent when you get stung on the [blasted language filter] backside.

So sting me already! It would seem that you are a literalist (to an extent anyway). It is just too bad you are more concern in believing what men agree on rather than what scripture tells you. But that's okay, for scripture does say that is impossible to please God without faith.

So the fact that I believe in God wholly and have no doubt at all in what He has revealed to me through His word simply confirms that I care little for your rude remarks, and more in pleasing God.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

So sting me already! It would seem that you are a literalist (to an extent anyway). It is just too bad you are more concern in believing what men agree on rather than what scripture tells you. But that's okay, for scripture does say that is impossible to please God without faith.

This is getting boring. You insist on conflating "don't take literally" with "don't believe". That's your intellectual difficulty, not mine. Just stop the false "don't believe" accusations yesterday. If you can't understand how I believe the Scriptures that's your sad look-out.

So the fact that I believe in God wholly and have no doubt at all in what He has revealed to me through His word simply confirms that I care little for your rude remarks, and more in pleasing God.

You've got no idea have you. You're the one who started casting doubt on the true Christianity of theistic evolutionists.

I'm out of here. It's not worth it.

 

[Vance]

Crusader:

What about us Christians who are born again and spirit-filled and believe that God has revealed something entirely different through His Spirit? Are you saying God has revealed different truths to each of us?

 

[Crusadar]

Crusader:

What about us Christians who are born again and spirit-filled and believe that God has revealed something entirely different through His Spirit? Are you saying God has revealed different truths to each of us?

Being born again is simply a beginning in the process of salvation. In order to understanding the nature of God and why He offered His beloved Son as atonement, one must surrender their life in totality to Christ. It is only then that He will reveal to us the truth of His infinite love - for there cannot be many truths for there is only one God. When we have stopped doubting the omniscient creative capabilities of God - it is only then that the lie of evolution is exposed.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Being born again is simply a beginning in the process of salvation. In order to understanding the nature of God and why He offered His beloved Son as atonement, one must surrender their life in totality to Christ. It is only then that He will reveal to us the truth of His infinite love - for there cannot be many truths for there is only one God. When we have stopped doubting the omniscient creative capabilities of God - it is only then that the lie of evolution is exposed.

Who told you that evolution was about doubting the 'omniscient creative capabilities of God'?

 

[Crusadar]

Who told you that evolution was about doubting the 'omniscient creative capabilities of God'?

Welcome back karl. I thought you left us.

My absolute faith in God.

 

[Vance]

Being born again is simply a beginning in the process of salvation. In order to understanding the nature of God and why He offered His beloved Son as atonement, one must surrender their life in totality to Christ. It is only then that He will reveal to us the truth of His infinite love - for there cannot be many truths for there is only one God. When we have stopped doubting the omniscient creative capabilities of God - it is only then that the lie of evolution is exposed.

Wait a second here! Are you saying that I do not "understand" because I have not surrendered my life totally to Christ? A bit presumptuous of you, I would say! I have, indeed, surrendered totally and make it a point to be entirely led by the Spirit to the extent a human can.

And, since I never have doubted the omniscient creative capability of God, and yet still believe that He used evolution as a major part of His creative process, how does that fit into your scheme of things?

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Welcome back karl. I thought you left us.

My absolute faith in God.

I ought to be, but I have an obsessive personality and your asinine comments cry out for reply.

So - God told you that evolution was a rejection of God's creative power, did He? Hate to tell you, but that wasn't God. I know this because I know that I don't reject God's creative power, and I do accept evolution. God wouldn't lie, so God couldn't have told you something I know isn't true.

Unless you want to accuse me of lying as a way out?

 

[Crusadar]

Wait a second here! Are you saying that I do not "understand" because I have not surrendered my life totally to Christ? A bit presumptuous of you, I would say! I have, indeed, surrendered totally and make it a point to be entirely led by the Spirit to the extent a human can.

And, since I never have doubted the omniscient creative capability of God, and yet still believe that He used evolution as a major part of His creative process, how does that fit into your scheme of things?

First of all vance there is no reason to get all wound up on what I said. If it does not apply to you then fine. But you need to examine your own life if you have truly surrendered yourself to Christ by asking: Do I have a personal relationship with Christ? Have I abandoned all my earthly endeavors in pursuit of Christ? Is He always first in everything I do?

And yes you do doubt the creative capability of God and don’t even realize it. By saying God used evolution you are saying that chance did do what God is plainly said to have done. And so by saying that the only design which is not the product of a designer is life itself, you inherently reject God’s revelation - as He is the only source of life.

In reality we recognize that design is evident in things that are far less in complexity than that of life. When we see a machine much less in complexity we say intelligence was involved in creating it. How is it that we fail to see the infinite intelligence in biology - which is nothing more than billions upon billions of super miniaturized machines working together in harmony? For is it not from our understanding of reality that anything designed reflects most of all the capabilities of the designer – where life represents foremost the infinite creative capability of God?

 

[Crusadar]

I ought to be, but I have an obsessive personality and your asinine comments cry out for reply.

So - God told you that evolution was a rejection of God's creative power, did He? Hate to tell you, but that wasn't God. I know this because I know that I don't reject God's creative power, and I do accept evolution. God wouldn't lie, so God couldn't have told you something I know isn't true.

Unless you want to accuse me of lying as a way out?

Read my reply to vance.

By the way karl, no one is accusing you of anything, your are already doing a very good job of accusing yourself.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Read my reply to vance.

By the way karl, no one is accusing you of anything, your are already doing a very good job of accusing yourself.

Don't be a bleedin' idiot all your life.

You said:

So it is no more than a fantastic myth to true believers and an alternative faith to non believers. Theistic evolutionists, well they are simply caught in the middle - f0or they are simply unsure of which side to be on.

Pretty clear from your statement that anyone whose a "true believer" would see evolution as no more than a fantastic myth. By simple deduction, anyone who doesn't is not a "true believer". That is an accusation. Stop wriggling.

 

[Vance]

First of all vance there is no reason to get all wound up on what I said. If it does not apply to you then fine. But you need to examine your own life if you have truly surrendered yourself to Christ by asking: Do I have a personal relationship with Christ? Have I abandoned all my earthly endeavors in pursuit of Christ? Is He always first in everything I do?

And yes you do doubt the creative capability of God and don’t even realize it. By saying God used evolution you are saying that chance did do what God is plainly said to have done. And so by saying that the only design which is not the product of a designer is life itself, you inherently reject God’s revelation - as He is the only source of life.

In reality we recognize that design is evident in things that are far less in complexity than that of life. When we see a machine much less in complexity we say intelligence was involved in creating it. How is it that we fail to see the infinite intelligence in biology - which is nothing more than billions upon billions of super miniaturized machines working together in harmony? For is it not from our understanding of reality that anything designed reflects most of all the capabilities of the designer – where life represents foremost the infinite creative capability of God?

Wow, you start off by saying that "if it does not apply to me, fine", then go on to tell me that it *does*, indeed, apply to me! The height of arrogant presumption! Can you not accept that someone fully surrendered to God could believe you are simply wrong on this point? Do you think that every Christian who holds different views does so because they are not as fully in tune with God as you are? Do you realize what you are saying by all this? Please read my post on the lesson from Job, since it may be that you are falling into the same error as he did.

And, no, you are completely and utterly wrong if you think that I doubt the creative ability of God. God created the process of photosynthesis, the process of sexual reproduction, and many other scientific processes to fulfill His creative endeavors. We understand these things to be true because we have studied His creation. And yet, knowing of these processes does not diminish our belief that God has created everything. He could, of course, have specially created each of us individually and every new tree and plant and every organism on the earth with a wave of His hand. But He chose to use these natural processes, and this does not diminish His abilities one little bit.

In short, creating the process of evolution by which all the individual creatures were thus created "from the Earth" in their fullness of time (based on the "periods of times" which has been sadly translated as "days"), is as much an omnipotent creative force as an immediate popping into existence.

The proof is in myself. I believe that this is a very likely possibility and yet I do not believe God is any less powerful or omnipotent as a result of this belief. If your theory was correct, then my very belief in the possibility of God creating by evolution should weaken my concept of God's omnipotence. It does not.

 

[Crusadar]

Don't be a bleedin' idiot all your life.

You said:

Pretty clear from your statement that anyone whose a "true believer" would see evolution as no more than a fantastic myth. By simple deduction, anyone who doesn't is not a "true believer". That is an accusation. Stop wriggling.

Your comments are so inciteful! Unbecoming of a Christian, but entertaining nonetheless.

And yes, I did say something to that affect but alas you have missed the point - again. There is a difference between "a believer" and "a true believer" as Satan is a believer and he shudders before God, and yet he is not a "true believer" as he does submit to God. A true believer is a follower of Christ, and not someone who simply achknowledges in God's existence and leaves it at that. You have yet to show me that of yourself, for I see not the burning desire for Christ in any of your posts other than insistent pontifications of what you believe about what scripture does not say.

 

[Reader Nilus]

I find that the problems of creationism mirror the problems with timelines for the Escathon. Reading Genesis as literal science is the problem just as reading Revelation as a blueprint for history.
There is nothing in the Bible that indicates how of creation, or how long it took. Genesis 1 is poetry and to be read as such.
Can an Orthodox become an evolutionist is an excellent article on how creationists put road blocks up to evanglical outreach.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Reader Nilus]

First of all vance there is no reason to get all wound up on what I said. If it does not apply to you then fine. But you need to examine your own life if you have truly surrendered yourself to Christ by asking: Do I have a personal relationship with Christ? Have I abandoned all my earthly endeavors in pursuit of Christ? Is He always first in everything I do?

And yes you do doubt the creative capability of God and don’t even realize it. By saying God used evolution you are saying that chance did do what God is plainly said to have done. And so by saying that the only design which is not the product of a designer is life itself, you inherently reject God’s revelation - as He is the only source of life.

In reality we recognize that design is evident in things that are far less in complexity than that of life. When we see a machine much less in complexity we say intelligence was involved in creating it. How is it that we fail to see the infinite intelligence in biology - which is nothing more than billions upon billions of super miniaturized machines working together in harmony? For is it not from our understanding of reality that anything designed reflects most of all the capabilities of the designer – where life represents foremost the infinite creative capability of God?

No where in the Creeds of the Church is there a requirement to read Genesis as a scientific text, to be a Christian. That is not biblical to think to be a Christian one needs to be a Creationist, because the Biblical writer was not at all concerned with answering how, but who. There is a huge difference.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Crusadar]

Jeffthefinn: I find that the problems of creationism mirror the problems with timelines for the Escathon. Reading Genesis as literal science is the problem just as reading Revelation as a blueprint for history.

Yes scripture says God created by the power of His word and I believe – if that is what you mean by creationism. And because God did tell us He created in such a manner I am not only awed by His awesome creative capabilities but am also astounded by the infinite love that He has shown us when man rejected God.

It is not really an issue of literalism as much as it is an issue of faith. By saying that God used evolution, it is in fact saying that God is an incompetent designer – just look at the mess of a world. Besides theistic evolution is very much an oxymoron anyway as “theistic” implies God, but evolution does not require Him.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates how of creation, or how long it took.

Um, which Bible have you been reading because mine clearly says:

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:11

"It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:17

Genesis 1 is poetry and to be read as such.

O-k-a-y, if you say so. But I do have a minor in English and Genesis is no Shakespeare. So if it is meant to be a poem than it is indeed very poor poetry. Unless of course it was meant to be literal history, then it makes a lot of sense. A literal creation - means that we are the immediate result of the infinite thought process of God which means – God owns us, because we are in fact His creation.

Can an Orthodox become an evolutionist is an excellent article on how creationists put road blocks up to evanglical outreach.

The question you should really ask Jeff is “Can a ‘true believer’ of God believe evolution is how God created? It would seem you too are more concern with being in accord with man’s interpretations of God’s creation rather than being in harmony with God’s word. It becomes clear to me why believers need to justify themselves before God, but it makes no spiritual sense at all why they must prove themselves before men – unless they hold the opinion of men more than that of God – which is often the case. As many self professed Christians think they can simply go with the flow and not worry about the consequences – because God you know is forgiving and will understand if we do not trust Him. We should know better than that.

No where in the Creeds of the Church is there a requirement to read Genesis as a scientific text, to be a Christian. That is not biblical to think to be a Christian one needs to be a Creationist, because the Biblical writer was not at all concerned with answering how, but who. There is a huge difference.

Then perhaps it is religion that you believe and not God. For there is a difference between following a religion blindly and never knowing why it is one follows it and following Christ. And yes you are right, there is no salvation requirement for you to take Genesis as literal or allegory – but consistency is a key component in a personal relationship with Christ.

The Bible a scientific text? Of course not, because it was never meant to be. It is the revelation of who God is and what He has done, not how He did it. But it is however essential that we have absolute faith in God and a part of believing in God is accepting what Scripture tells us even though “our” interpretation of reality disagrees with Scripture. As true believers of Christ the issue then becomes not how we can make scripture conform to man’s theories when scripture clearly tells us one thing and man’s interpretations says another, but how we must interpret the evidence to conform logically with Scripture.