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Evoluiton can't account for higher-level animal behaviour

GrowingSmaller

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I believe in conscious causation. I think its function is to allow for higher level behaviour by making things matter to the subject or animal- consciousness makes consequences felt, experienced etc.

If you don't care, if things don't matter, things soon get bad. That, though, is a side issue.

So although it assists evolution, Ill argue its not physically explicable.

Now, the main theorem:

Without some influence of consciousness on events, we couldn't be talking about it. A purely non-conscious process wouldn't invent conversations and discourses about it, just as a purely "green process" wouldn't behave in a "reddish" way....

Get it?

As its reasonable to presume that higher animals are conscious, including humans, then because physical explanations (i.e. which stick to the "green machine" side of reality) are inadequate....

AND yet evolution is a physical oriented theory,

THEREFORE its valid to conclude evolution is not sufficient - i.e. its always going to be an inadequate or incomplete account of higher animal behaviour.
 

Aussie Pete

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I believe in conscious causation. I think its function is to allow for higher level behaviour by making things matter to the subject or animal- consciousness makes consequences felt, experienced etc.

If you don't care, if things don't matter, things soon get bad. That, though, is a side issue.

So although it assists evolution, Ill argue its not physically explicable.

Now, the main theorem:

Without some influence of consciousness on events, we couldn't be talking about it. A purely non-conscious process wouldn't invent conversations and discourses about it, just as a purely "green process" wouldn't behave in a "reddish" way....

Get it?

As its reasonable to presume that higher animals are conscious, including humans, then because physical explanations (i.e. which stick to the "green machine" side of reality) are inadequate....

AND yet evolution is a physical oriented theory,

THEREFORE its valid to conclude evolution is not sufficient - i.e. its always going to be an inadequate or incomplete account of higher animal behaviour.
Concur. A reptile has to move around to seek either warm or cool areas to maintain its correct body heat. How does it know to do that? How does it know what "correct" is? And how did it make the jump from a deliberate action to regulate its body heat to a sophisticated, closed loop temperature control system? That is difficult to design for intelligent humans, let alone the totally random process of evolution. Let's call it for what it is: Evolution - myth busted.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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Without some influence of consciousness on events, we couldn't be talking about it. A purely non-conscious process wouldn't invent conversations and discourses about it, just as a purely "green process" wouldn't behave in a "reddish" way....
I assume this is the part you want to discuss? If so, please support this assertion. There is no reason to accept your proposition as it stands. What does it even mean that "evolution wouldn't invent conversations about itself"(my paraphrase)?
 
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SkyWriting

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I assume this is the part you want to discuss? If so, please support this assertion. There is no reason to accept your proposition as it stands. What does it even mean that "evolution wouldn't invent conversations about itself"(my paraphrase)?

If evolution was useful, then some monkeys or whales, would have higher level reasoning. Our brains are not that big, that only humans have it. We would live on planet with many peer species.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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If evolution was useful, then some monkeys or whales, would have higher level reasoning. Our brains are not that big, that only humans have it. We would live on planet with many peer species.
Rubbish.
 
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pitabread

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Concur. A reptile has to move around to seek either warm or cool areas to maintain its correct body heat. How does it know to do that? How does it know what "correct" is? And how did it make the jump from a deliberate action to regulate its body heat to a sophisticated, closed loop temperature control system? That is difficult to design for intelligent humans, let alone the totally random process of evolution. Let's call it for what it is: Evolution - myth busted.

All of this could be answered by learning about the nervous system and the evolution of the same.
 
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pitabread

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Without some influence of consciousness on events, we couldn't be talking about it. A purely non-conscious process wouldn't invent conversations and discourses about it, just as a purely "green process" wouldn't behave in a "reddish" way....

Get it?

It sounds to me like the above can be answered by reading up on the concept of emergent properties: Emergence - Wikipedia

As its reasonable to presume that higher animals are conscious, including humans, then because physical explanations (i.e. which stick to the "green machine" side of reality) are inadequate....

AND yet evolution is a physical oriented theory,

THEREFORE its valid to conclude evolution is not sufficient - i.e. its always going to be an inadequate or incomplete account of higher animal behaviour.

Simply claiming something "[is] reasonable to presume" is not the same thing as demonstrating such presumption is actually reasonable.

What you have is an unsupported assertion. You haven't demonstrated that evolution is not sufficient to explain the emergence of "higher" animal behavior.

Further, I think if you studied the concept of emergent properties you'd find an answer that fits with biological evolution.

(Also, I recommend dropping the green/red analogy. It's just going to muddy the water here.)
 
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pitabread

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If evolution was useful, then some monkeys or whales, would have higher level reasoning. Our brains are not that big, that only humans have it. We would live on planet with many peer species.

This entirely depends on what you are defining as "higher level reasoning". However, there are other animals have demonstrated to have capabilities of reasoning, planning, language, etc.

When you start to try to define intelligence and what constitutes different facets of intelligence, there is no single area where humans are completely unique.
 
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expos4ever

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As its reasonable to presume that higher animals are conscious, including humans, then because physical explanations (i.e. which stick to the "green machine" side of reality) are inadequate....
I politely suggest your argument is not clear - can you please clarify exactly what you are saying? To be fair to you, and to the rest of us, "consciousness" is a loaded term that means different things to different people. To me - and I suspect to you based on your post - it refers to the set of subjective experiences we have - the tangy taste of orange juice, the deep pink of a sunset, the chill up your spine on listening to great music, etc.

I certainly agree - as I believe do the experts - that consciousness is deeply mysterious: there is no explanation as to why neurons firing in the brain should be accompanied by a subjective sensation experienced solely by the person who owns that brain. But how does this gap in our explanatory arsenal challenge evolution?

You may already know that some experts consider consciousness (in the sense of subjective experiences per above) to be an "epiphenomenon" - something that, while real, plays no causative role in what we do. I get the impression you are taking the opposite view - that our subjective experiences do indeed play a determining role in how we act. Fair enough, that is possible; however, it appears to me that you are simply assuming this to be the case, and are building your case on that assumption.

Interested in your response - this is a fascinating question.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I believe in conscious causation. I think its function is to allow for higher level behaviour by making things matter to the subject or animal- consciousness makes consequences felt, experienced etc.

If you don't care, if things don't matter, things soon get bad. That, though, is a side issue.

So although it assists evolution, Ill argue its not physically explicable.

Now, the main theorem:

Without some influence of consciousness on events, we couldn't be talking about it. A purely non-conscious process wouldn't invent conversations and discourses about it, just as a purely "green process" wouldn't behave in a "reddish" way....

Get it?

As its reasonable to presume that higher animals are conscious, including humans, then because physical explanations (i.e. which stick to the "green machine" side of reality) are inadequate....

AND yet evolution is a physical oriented theory,

THEREFORE its valid to conclude evolution is not sufficient - i.e. its always going to be an inadequate or incomplete account of higher animal behaviour.
This is pretty much the argument made by philosopher Thomas Nagel in his book 'Mind and Cosmos' - he gives a brief summary here. There have been a number of critical reviews (Sean Carroll's blog links to some) which may be of interest.

The main problem I have with this idea is that it's basic premise (physical explanations are inadequate) is weak - our current physical explanations are incomplete; whether we can get what might be considered a complete physical explanation remains to be seen - this is common to other physical fields of study; but in the case of consciousness, it's hard to say what would be a complete physical explanation because of the issue of subjectivity (see below).

It seems to me that the available evidence suggests that consciousness evolved as a means of facilitating dynamic, flexible behaviour, involving theory of mind, modelling self and others, and modelling future 'what-if' scenarios, i.e. planning. The way the various processes and models interact appears to produce a sense of subjective experience. It's not clear precisely how this happens, but we know many different ways to distort subjective experience and modify its intensity by disrupting the activity of specific areas of the brain, just as unconscious brain processes can be modified and distorted by disrupting their activity.

In other words, consciousness appears to be what happens when certain brain processes are active in particular ways. The complication with explaining this is that descriptions are necessarily objective (referential, linguistic), whereas conscious experience is necessarily subjective (experiential, phenomenal), so no matter how detailed the physical description, it will always involve correlations with reported experience.

As Wittgenstein observed, there is no private language; we can only communicate our experience via metaphor and simile, appeals to shared objective events and the hope that our experience of what they are like is similar to other people's (we also know this isn't always true). This is why one of the best definitions of consciousness is Nagel's: that there is something it is like to be a particular creature.

The simplest explanation of how consciousness can influence material events is that it is what the neurological evidence suggests, a particular subset of brain processes. It seems to me that the reification of consciousness is unjustified; dualist models are no more explanatory, and raise far more metaphysical and ontological questions than they purport to answer.

Panpsychist models such as Philip Goff's seems to avoid the need for functional explanation by making consciousness fundamental, but run into explanatory problems such as how, and what it could mean for, an electron to have a tiny amount of consciousness, how collections of fundamental elements of consciousness make large-scale consciousness in animals with brains, but apparently not elsewhere, and so-on.
 
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SkyWriting

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This entirely depends on what you are defining as "higher level reasoning". However, there are other animals have demonstrated to have capabilities of reasoning, planning, language, etc.

When you start to try to define intelligence and what constitutes different facets of intelligence, there is no single area where humans are completely unique.

Your ability to read and internalize this sentence, comprehend
the source and the intention is completely unique to humans. Word.



Summary
"The biophysical features of neurons shape information processing in the brain. Cortical neurons are larger in humans than in other species, but it is unclear how their size affects synaptic integration. Here, we perform direct electrical recordings from human dendrites and report enhanced electrical compartmentalization in layer 5 pyramidal neurons. Compared to rat dendrites, distal human dendrites provide limited excitation to the soma, even in the presence of dendritic spikes. Human somas also exhibit less bursting due to reduced recruitment of dendritic electrogenesis. Finally, we find that decreased ion channel densities result in higher input resistance and underlie the lower coupling of human dendrites. We conclude that the increased length of human neurons alters their input-output properties, which will impact cortical computation."
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(18)31106-1?_returnURL=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0092867418311061?showall=true
 
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expos4ever

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That is difficult to design for intelligent humans, let alone the totally random process of evolution. Let's call it for what it is: Evolution - myth busted.
Evolution is NOT totally random.
 
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pitabread

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Your ability to read and internalize this sentence, comprehend the source and the intention is completely unique to humans.

It's not unique to humans. Research into primate language and communication has demonstrated that other primates can learn to 'read' as well:

For example: Kanzi - Wikipedia


And the purpose of that citation is...?
 
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SkyWriting

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It's not unique to humans. Research into primate language and communication has demonstrated that other primates can learn to 'read' as well:

But not with the same comprehension and empathy.
 
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SkyWriting

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And the purpose of that citation is...?

Biological unique properties of the human brain. It's not larger that make it unique. It's functionally different than animal brains which allows for higher brain functions animals are not able to possess.

"Together with language, mental ‘time travel’ allows us to share our experiences and our hopes with many other people, building networks of combined knowledge that are continually growing with each generation. Science, architecture, technology, writing – in short, everything that allows you to read this article – would be impossible without it. "
We’ve got human intelligence all wrong
 
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pitabread

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But not with the same comprehension and empathy.

When talking about different degrees of the same functions, sure. Humans do communicate in a more complex fashion. But that doesn't mean the underlying processes of communication are unique to humans.

As for empathy, I think this says it all:

One of Washoe's caretakers was pregnant and missed work for many weeks after she miscarried. Roger Fouts recounts the following situation:

"People who should be there for her and aren't are often given the cold shoulder--her way of informing them that she's miffed at them. Washoe greeted Kat [the caretaker] in just this way when she finally returned to work with the chimps. Kat made her apologies to Washoe, then decided to tell her the truth, signing "MY BABY DIED". Washoe stared at her, then looked down. She finally peered into Kat's eyes again and carefully signed "CRY", touching her cheek and drawing her finger down the path a tear would make on a human (Chimpanzees don't shed tears). Kat later remarked that one sign told her more about Washoe and her mental capabilities than all her longer, grammatically perfect sentences."​

Washoe (chimpanzee) - Wikipedia
 
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KenJackson

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It seems to me that the available evidence suggests that consciousness evolved as a means of facilitating dynamic, flexible behaviour, involving theory of mind, modelling self and others, and modelling future 'what-if' scenarios, i.e. planning.

If something evolved as a means, then it has a purpose and must have been directed.

What would it mean for something with a purpose to originate via an undirected process?
 
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expos4ever

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If something evolved as a means, then it has a purpose and must have been directed.
Random mutation and natural selection fully explain all sorts of features that are “means to an end” with no need to tack on some sort of directive agent.
 
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KenJackson

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Evolution is NOT totally random.

I believe you refer to natural selection, which supplies a filtering effect to weed out bad changes by selecting beneficial changes.

But how could natural selection apply to the evolution of new proteins? Most proteins have more than 100 amino acid molecules in a specific order and some have more than 1000. A mutation in the DNA of the gene that encodes the protein may result in a change in a particular amino acid.

Would there be a benefit at each mutation along the way toward a new functional protein needed for the progress of evolution? NO! The overwhelming majority of chains of amino acids don't even fold correctly and therefore do nothing useful at all. No benefit. Natural selection has no benefit to select.

So it's up to random chance to get to the new protein. But the fact that there are 10^130 (ten to the 130 power) permutations of even a short protein with 100 amino acids, would seem to rule chance out too. After all, the universe is less than 10^18 seconds old.
 
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