Evil substances?

[Mountainmanbob]

I am not clear why in the first instance one can know with certainty, whereas in the second instance there is doubt? That seems a bit random to me. (And for me, way to subjective a process on which to base a moral code. )

It might take some time working out our salvation with fear and trembling and possibly more time in the Book to figure this one out.
M-Bob

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Here's one of many that might be sin for one person and not for another.
M-Bob

Note -- it is a sin when I drink alcohol.
It is not a sin when my wife drinks alcohol.
MB

 

[Ophiolite]

That Bob, is illogical. I can fully accept the following:

• Some things are sinful for everyone.
• Some things are sinful for some people, but not for others.

There is no problem with those concepts, but the concepts do not map onto the decision process. Thus, when I question myself as to whether an action I am contemplating is sinful or not, according to you, I can be certain I have the right answer if the answer comes back "sinful", but I shall be uncertain if the answer comes back "not sinful". You have not explained why this difference should exist.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

That Bob, is illogical. I can fully accept the following:

• Some things are sinful for everyone.
• Some things are sinful for some people, but not for others.

There is no problem with those concepts, but the concepts do not map onto the decision process. Thus, when I question myself as to whether an action I am contemplating is sinful or not, according to you, I can be certain I have the right answer if the answer comes back "sinful", but I shall be uncertain if the answer comes back "not sinful". You have not explained why this difference should exist.

There may be some things that I do that are no problem for me yet, I should not do around others because it may cause them to sin.
M-Bob

 

[Mountainmanbob]

So let's just say that I drink an occasional beer and my neighbor is an alcoholic. He invites me to come over to his house for a while. If I'm drinking a beer should I take it with me to his house?

Should not be rocket science.

If we have the Holy Spirit in us the answers should come fairly easy.

M-Bob

 

[Dave-W]

I am not clear why in the first instance one can know with certainty,

Romans 14:23b
whatever is not from faith is sin.​

If you are thinking something is sinful, it cannot be done in faith.

whereas in the second instance there is doubt?

In the second instance one would have to do an extensive bible study to determine if the activity or attitude violates biblical principles (a sin) or not. (not a sin)

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Romans 14:23b
whatever is not from faith is sin.​

If you are thinking something is sinful, it cannot be done in faith.

The Romans quote doesn't imply the statement you made. The former is an opaque definition of sin, the latter a precautionary principle to avoid sin.

In the second instance one would have to do an extensive bible study to determine if the activity or attitude violates biblical principles (a sin) or not. (not a sin)

Good grief - there's something wrong with a system where you need an extensive bible study to determine if something is wrong or not...

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Good grief - there's something wrong with a system where you need an extensive bible study to determine if something is wrong or not...

I agree and it's not that hard and it's not rocket science. Sin is usually really easy to recognize. Then what do we do with it? The Bible recommends to flee. Man has been known to not always do that. Repentance seems to be the name of the game.

M-Bob

 

[Ophiolite]

So let's just say that I drink an occasional beer and my neighbor is an alcoholic. He invites me to come over to his house for a while. If I'm drinking a beer should I take it with me to his house?

Should not be rocket science.

If we have the Holy Spirit in us the answers should come fairly easy.

M-Bob

Guess what Bob, I don't have the Holy Spirit in me. All I've got is the instinct for positive social behaviour derived through evolution and reinforced by a caring enivronment arising from the evolutionary patterns honed through many generations. Yet that's sufficient, with no Holy Spirit in sight, for me to know it would be thoughtless of me to "rub his face in it" unless this was something he had indicated was acceptable.

So you still haven't answered my question. How come can you be certain that something is sinful, but uncertain if you think it isn't sinful? This isn't rocket science Bob. Is my question unclear? There must be some reason you keep avoiding answering it. Poor writing on my part is the simplest explanation. So what isn't clear? If it is clear, please answer the question on my next post.

@Dave-W, I echo FrumiousBandersnatch's response.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

So you still haven't answered my question. How come can you be certain that something is sinful, but uncertain if you think it isn't sinful? This isn't rocket science Bob. Is my question unclear? There must be some reason you keep avoiding answering it. Poor writing on my part is the simplest explanation. So what isn't clear? If it is clear, please answer the question on my next post.

@Dave-W, I echo FrumiousBandersnatch's response.

Seems like the two of us are getting no where fast regarding this subject.
To keep it simple -- what does our conscience tell us to do?
A healthy conscience is a gift that not all have.
MB

 

[Ophiolite]

Seems like the two of us are getting no where fast regarding this subject.
To keep it simple -- what does our conscience tell us to do?
A healthy conscience is a gift that not all have.
MB

The two of us are getting nowhere because your refuse to answer a very simple question. Why is that?

We both agree it may be sinful to go drinking beer in front of an alchoholic. Do you consider it sinful to persistently adopt evasive tactics when holding a discussion with someone who has heart and bloodpressure problems and is stressed by such tactics? If you do, please avoid this sin by answering the question.

Do you consider it sinful to provoke an individual to the point where they can barely suppress offensive, belligerent invective? If so, please avoid this sin by stopping the evasive tactics and answering the question.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Do you consider it sinful to persistently adopt evasive tactics when holding a discussion with someone who has heart and bloodpressure problems and is stressed by such tactics?

Do you consider it sinful to provoke an individual to the point where they can barely suppress offensive, belligerent invective?

I'm sorry and I do apologize.

I tried my best but, it seems I cannot explain my thoughts to you?

Wishing for you a blessed evening,
Bob

 

[Ophiolite]

I'm sorry and I do apologize.

I tried my best but, it seems I cannot explain my thoughts to you?

Wishing for you a blessed evening,
Bob

Apology accepted, though I remain deeply perplexed as to why you are unable to answer, or - I suspect - understand, the question, but instead go off on sidetracks. It suggests to me you have arrived at your beliefs because they make you feel comfortable, not because they are logical.

For me, if anything remotely like the Christian God exists, he would not have provided us with the ability to use logic if he did not intend us to apply it. For me, that would be an affront to his wishes.

Anyway, don't lose any sleep over it, but perhaps, in a couple of weeks you could revisit our exchange and explore my question and reflect on your responses.

 

[juvenissun]

(This might have belonged in the philosophy section, but it is concerning natural and synthetic substances)
I have always been perplexed at people's views of substances and why some are ok and some are evil. I look at the reasoning behind those reasons and that is where the problem lies.

Some say if the bible mentions them and either condones or forbids them, that is good enough
Some say that it depends if it is good for your body or bad for it. This one is really tough because of the plethora of disinformation out there.
Some are followers of the gov't and the FDA and follows their approved/disapproved lists.
Some follow natural practitioners.
Some Follow doctors orders and eat the pills.
See what I mean?

What is the correct way to decide if a substance is clean or unclean?

We MUST go back to the conditions of a "natural" world. Any artificial modification to natural conditions is the reason of negative consequence. God gives us a nearly perfect world. Anything we change, would have negative consequence.

For example, is "fat" a bad food?
Not at all. If we do not raise live stocks and make it so much, so cheap, then fat would be rare and is very good to human diet. Would you reject to consume one pound of beef fat as the only source of fat available in one year of time? May be you would want to have more.

 

[juvenissun]

(This might have belonged in the philosophy section, but it is concerning natural and synthetic substances)
I have always been perplexed at people's views of substances and why some are ok and some are evil. I look at the reasoning behind those reasons and that is where the problem lies.

Some say if the bible mentions them and either condones or forbids them, that is good enough
Some say that it depends if it is good for your body or bad for it. This one is really tough because of the plethora of disinformation out there.
Some are followers of the gov't and the FDA and follows their approved/disapproved lists.
Some follow natural practitioners.
Some Follow doctors orders and eat the pills.
See what I mean?

What is the correct way to decide if a substance is clean or unclean?

Everything God gives us on the earth is good to us.
Provided, NO artificial interference and alteration.
Example: Opium plant. Don't forget the key: No agriculture of it, and no chemical extraction.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Everything God gives us on the earth is good to us.

Yeah - except for all the things that aren't good to us; the dangerous - poisonous, infectious, injurious, etc.

 

[juvenissun]

Yeah - except for all the things that aren't good to us; the dangerous - poisonous, infectious, injurious, etc.

In an imperfect world, even those things are good to us.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

In an imperfect world, even those things are good to us.

Er, right...