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Evil boasting-responsibility

S

SeventhValley

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If God is sovereign over all then I cannot boast of good works but neither can I boast of evil works for both are the work of God.

If everyone had free will at birth and did not choose God but he still choose some if us that seems ok.

But if we were made to not choose God from the beginning how are we at fault for carrying out his will?
 

abacabb3

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If God is sovereign over all then I cannot boast of good works but neither can I boast of evil works for both are the work of God.

Well, we shouldn't be boasting of either.

If everyone had free will at birth and did not choose God but he still choose some if us that seems ok.

But if we were made to not choose God from the beginning how are we at fault for carrying out his will?

I am sure you will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
 
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abacabb3

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I know that is a discussion about Isreal and the Jews loosing their only people of God status. But if I complain about God that is what God wants me to do. So by complaining about him I am doing his will. How can I be blammed for doing his will?

Well, if God can harden a whole people and elevate another whole group of people, and no one is supposed to complain and just realize that God does this to exemplify the depths of His grace, what makes something applicable to a whole group of people yet at the same time not applicable to each individual in the group? It doesn't work that way. Whatever applies to groups applies to individuals.

So, your exegesis does not undo the answer Paul gives. We are not to question God, He is showing the true depths of love and mercy.
 
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Skala

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If God is sovereign over all then I cannot boast of good works but neither can I boast of evil works for both are the work of God.?

This is not quite true. While God is sovereign over sin, somehow, He still holds sinners accountable.

My position is, as finite humans we cannot understand this. But the Bible teaches this (examples below), therefore, I am bound to beleive it. The litmus test over whether something is true is not whether or not I can understand it, but rather, if the Bible teaches it.

Take Joseph for example. His brothers sold him into slavery for sinful and selfish reasons. Yet Joseph's own testimony is that it was not his brothers who sent him to Egypt, but God.

Josephs understanding of his life is that God was in control of the whole thing. It was God's plan that Joseph be sold into slavery to Egypt, which allowed Joseph to rise to power and do much good and save many lives.

So while the brothers sinned (and were held accountable for it), it was still God's design all along.


The second example is Christ's crucifixion. We are told in Acts that "wicked men" are who betrayed and murdered Christ. nevertheless, we are told in Acts 4:27-28 that in doing so, they were merely carrying out "God's predestined plan"

So God was sovereign over the sin of murdering Jesus, but at the same time, God holds those men accountable for doing so. In some way, they are still morally responsible, even while God was sovereign over the whole thing.

I don't pretend to understand how this is possible, but I am bound to believe it, because the Bible teaches it. Our job is to believe and trust. God is always perfectly just and holy, therefore, he is just in punishing sinners, even when they are carrying out His decreed plan. We should never question God's justice or character. In doing so, we are making our own understanding of things the standard by which to measure God.

One thing that might help is to see a asymmetry here. Man's intentions in sinning and God's intentions in decreeing the sin are not symmetrical, but opposite.

Man's intentions in sinning are always evil and wicked, but in that same action, God's intentions in decreeing the sin are always holy, good, and righteous.

Man's intentions in selling Joseph into slavery were wicked and selfish, but God's intention in decreeing the sin was "To save many lives". Also, if you remember from the story of Joseph, Joseph eventually forgave his brothers and there was reconciliation there. A beautiful story that one can clearly see God was behind.

Man's intentions in murdering Jesus was wicked and evil, but God's intentions in decreeing the sin was salvation itself. God sacrificed his Son as an atonement for sin, so that He could save sinners.

So, when God decrees sin, it is for the complete opposite reasons that the man has when the man is the one carrying out the sinful activity. God's intentions and motives are pure, but man's intentions and motives are sinful.

And that is why God can judge and hold men accountable.
 
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Skala

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I can work with that. Thanks Skala :)

Thanks SeventhValley :)

If you want to study more, John Owen wrote excellent works on sin and how God uses sin, even in a Christian's life, for our good (our sanctification, etc). So sin, while bad in and of itself, is used by God to accomplish greater things.

http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Sin-Temptation-John-Owen/dp/1581346492

This book is two of Owens best books on the subject of sin and sanctification. This edition is sort of an "updated to our modern language" edition. It's much easier to read than the old puritan style of writing :)
 
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