Evil and Suffering

[jimmyjimmy]

Here is part 2 of 6 of the most common objections to Christianity (from a Western perspective) taken from: DECONSTRUCTING DEFEATER BELIEFS:Leading the Secular to Christ. By Tim Keller, Senior Pastor, Redeemer Presbyterian Church

Evil and Suffering
​

The Argument:

"Christianity teaches the existence of an all-powerful, all-good and loving God. But how can that belief be reconciled with the horrors that occur daily? If there is a God, he must be either all-powerful but not good enough to want an end to evil and suffering, or he's all-good but not powerful enough to bring an end to evil and suffering. Either way the God of the Bible couldn't exist. For many people, this is not only an intellectual conundrum but also an intensely personal problem. Their own personal lives are marred by tragedy, abuse, and injustice."

Brief Response:

If God himself has suffered our suffering isn't senseless. First, if you have a God great and transcendent enough to be mad at because he hasn't stopped evil and suffering in the world, then you have to (at the same moment) have a God great and transcendent enough to have good reasons for allowing it to continue that you can't know. (You can't have it both ways.) Second, though we don't know the reasons why he allows it to continue, he can't be indifferent or un-caring, because the Christian God (unlike the gods of all the other religions) takes our misery and suffering so seriously that he is willing to get involved with it himself. On the cross, Jesus suffered with us.

Please interact with either or both of the two statements in the response.

 

[Freodin]

First, if you have a God great and transcendent enough to be mad at because he hasn't stopped evil and suffering in the world, then you have to (at the same moment) have a God great and transcendent enough to have good reasons for allowing it to continue that you can't know. (You can't have it both ways.)

You don't need to have it "both ways". If you try to one-up-transcend this objection, you have no way to stop.

So there is the "third way": if you have a God great and transcendent enough to have good reasons for allowing it to continue, then you also have to have, at the same moment, a God great and transcendent enough to have good reasons and still stop evil and suffering in the world.

A deity bound by fate or "good reasons" might work for some theologies... for a "transcendent" one, it doesn't work.

Second, though we don't know the reasons why he allows it to continue, he can't be indifferent or un-caring, because the Christian God (unlike the gods of all the other religions) takes our misery and suffering so seriously that he is willing to get involved with it himself. On the cross, Jesus suffered with us.

Two objections here.
First of all, there are examples of suffering deities in a number of different religions. The specific circumstances might be unique to Christianity... but in this regard the specific circumstances are unique to each specific religion.

Second, assertion that "Jesus suffered with us" might deflect the objection that God is "indifferent or un-caring"... meaning, not "loving", but this version of "love" is not unobjected in itself.


What this "brief response" does is basically nothing but argue for "faith"... and blind faith on top. ("...that you can't know...")

Of course, from the Christian perspective, that is seen as the ultimate answer.

But how this is meant to "Lead[...] the Secular to Christ" is beyond me.

 

[[serious]]

Rather than copying and pasting, why don't you post your own take on the argument? Would you accept a generic copy and paste response to the problem of evil? Then why would you forward a copy and paste statement of it?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

deleted

 

[dcalling]

You don't need to have it "both ways". If you try to one-up-transcend this objection, you have no way to stop.

So there is the "third way": if you have a God great and transcendent enough to have good reasons for allowing it to continue, then you also have to have, at the same moment, a God great and transcendent enough to have good reasons and still stop evil and suffering in the world.

A deity bound by fate or "good reasons" might work for some theologies... for a "transcendent" one, it doesn't work.

Our God is bound by love, and it is the love that last for eternity. Sometimes there are things that seems cruel, but it is also God's love for us. It is like we force medicine down our children, they might screaming and kicking but it is still good for them.

So there is another way, that God can see much better than us and our years on this earth is like a blimp, what we care most (i.e. riches, not suffering) will be like nothing when we "grow" up, like our old toys.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Our God is bound by love, and it is the love that last for eternity. Sometimes there are things that seems cruel, but it is also God's love for us. It is like we force medicine down our children, they might screaming and kicking but it is still good for them.

So there is another way, that God can see much better than us and our years on this earth is like a blimp, what we care most (i.e. riches, not suffering) will be like nothing when we "grow" up, like our old toys.

Precisely. Pain and suffering from our vantage point that seems "senseless", is not. Evil and suffering are not good things, but their end can be. Have you never had a small pain spare you from a larger one? A dentist's chair comes to mind. . .

There are are countless other examples once you think about it, in which we can see both ends of suffering. We can see the beginning and the end, and we can see how suffering some pain or loss actually worked out to our benefit. We were fired, but ended up with a job paying twice the salary, as another example.

The unknown, what we discussing here, is when you can't see both ends. You see the beginning and the middle, but not the end. You see a spouse suffer and die from cancer, or your village wiped out by terrorists or a flood. . .

Simply because we don't see the other side of these things does not mean that they lack purpose. From God's vantage point and for His plans, they have purpose.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

This expands on the question of evil and suffering and an answer.

 

[Freodin]

Our God is bound by love, and it is the love that last for eternity. Sometimes there are things that seems cruel, but it is also God's love for us. It is like we force medicine down our children, they might screaming and kicking but it is still good for them.

Can you, just for a second, imagine that we (atheists) over the years had already heard this response to the problem, considered it, rejected it... transcended it?

Because it is rather depressing when I keep making the third stage of an argument, and my opposite keeps clinging to the second.


It is NOT like we force medicine down our children, while they are screaming and kicking. We do so, because we do not have another way. When we do not have another, a better way. As soon as we do, we change it.

You have a toothache. The barber takes a look, gets his big pair of pliers and starts to work. Blood and pain... perhaps an infection... surely there must be a better way?
"Nah", says the apologet, "he is only subjecting you to this torture to help you. Why do you reject his help?"

Think about this the next time you go to the dentist to have a cavity filled, under anestetics.


And now we are to consider an omnipotent, "transcendent" God... who cannot do that. Seems strange.

So there is another way, that God can see much better than us and our years on this earth is like a blimp, what we care most (i.e. riches, not suffering) will be like nothing when we "grow" up, like our old toys.

As I said in this first post, this isn't a conclusive logical argument - it is a plea for faith. It is, for what its worth, an admission that your argument failed, but "Please, please, pretty please accept the result I think is correct regardless."


I still fail to see how this is meant to "Lead[...] the Secular to Christ".

 

[DogmaHunter]

When it comes to the "problem of evil", I feel like a much better argument against the christian god is not so much that he supposedly "allows" evil to exist... but rather the very evil acts he condones or even commands in the bible.

I consider the simple existence of suffering etc not to be a very convincing argument, although there certainly some good points in it. But in the end, "light" can't have any meaning without "darkness".

To quote Butthead from MTV: "if like ..uhuhuhu...nothing sucked, and everything was cool all the time.... how would you know it was cool?"

There's also not much point in the concept of rewarding good if evil doesn't exist...

However, I don't see how one can marry the idea of an "all-loving, perfectly moral and just god" with his acts, commandments and laws of the bible.

An all-loving, all-good being would not condone slavery, public executions by stoning (for ANY crime), genocides, etc etc.

 

[dcalling]

Can you, just for a second, imagine that we (atheists) over the years had already heard this response to the problem, considered it, rejected it... transcended it?

Former atheist here, so yes And hopefully at sometimes in your lifetime, you might transcend again and reverse the rejection.

It is NOT like we force medicine down our children, while they are screaming and kicking. We do so, because we do not have another way. When we do not have another, a better way. As soon as we do, we change it.

When it come to free will, I don't know if there is other way.

And now we are to consider an omnipotent, "transcendent" God... who cannot do that. Seems strange.

Why you think God is omnipotent? Is that written anywhere? God is the most powerful, but by logic omnipotent is no possible.

 

[dcalling]

However, I don't see how one can marry the idea of an "all-loving, perfectly moral and just god" with his acts, commandments and laws of the bible.
An all-loving, all-good being would not condone slavery, public executions by stoning (for ANY crime), genocides, etc etc.

There is no place in the Bible that says God condone slavery, public executions by stoning.

 

[Freodin]

Former atheist here, so yes And hopefully at sometimes in your lifetime, you might transcend again and reverse the rejection.

I, most likely, would... if I had good reasons to do so. Nothing I have seen here has provided me with good reasons.

When it come to free will, I don't know if there is other way.

So... the great and transcendend God can have "good reasons" that we do not know... but he cannot have ways to implement them that we do not know.

To quote the OP: you can't have it both ways. You cannot argue that there could be a way (a reason) that you do not know... and then support that reasoning by saying that there cannot be a way (a reason), because you do not know.

Why you think God is omnipotent? Is that written anywhere? God is the most powerful, but by logic omnipotent is no possible.

There are enough Christians out there who argue - backed with verses from the Bible - that God is above logic. I am not here to solve the differences between Christian interpretations.

But I find it quite interesting that God can do each and every thing that an apologet needs to back up his argument... but is powerless the very instant his divine might goes against an apologetic argument.

 

[dcalling]

I, most likely, would... if I had good reasons to do so. Nothing I have seen here has provided me with good reasons.

With our current knowledge it is very obvious that God exists. Almost no denial

So... the great and transcendend God can have "good reasons" that we do not know... but he cannot have ways to implement them that we do not know.

To quote the OP: you can't have it both ways. You cannot argue that there could be a way (a reason) that you do not know... and then support that reasoning by saying that there cannot be a way (a reason), because you do not know.

I might know what you are talking about but I am not sure. What really touched me about Christianity is the verse "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27). It solved my question early on, when I was a socialist, I want to dedicate my life to others, but find there are so many people that are so selfish and bad that I just don't want to help. Christianity, not Buddhism nor Islam, helped me to realized that I am just as selfish, but since God saved me, I got to do the same for others.

There are enough Christians out there who argue - backed with verses from the Bible - that God is above logic. I am not here to solve the differences between Christian interpretations.

Truth is truth, doesn't matter if anyone, if Christians, Jews Muslims Atheists disagree.

But I find it quite interesting that God can do each and every thing that an apologet needs to back up his argument... but is powerless the very instant his divine might goes against an apologetic argument.

No one knows exactly how powerful God is or what limitations of God is, but one thing is for certain, that what God promised will eventually happen, and God can tweak the world in a certain way to make some of it happen. Just look at the nation of Israel, how impossible for that nation to be again after thousands of year, or how Christianity spread under persecution in the first 200 years.

 

[Freodin]

With our current knowledge it is very obvious that God exists. Almost no denial

Please don't do that. This is meant to be a serious discussion, and there is nothing more humiliating and repulsive in any serious conversation than one side turning to "nothing to discuss, everything already settled, obviously you are wrong, I don't even have to bother making an argument, ha, ha, you lost!"

Don't do that. All you accomplish is giving me another reason to assume that a) you are lying when you claim to have been an atheist and b) Christians are nothing but arrogant know-it-alls.

I might know what you are talking about but I am not sure. What really touched me about Christianity is the verse "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27). It solved my question early on, when I was a socialist, I want to dedicate my life to others, but find there are so many people that are so selfish and bad that I just don't want to help. Christianity, not Buddhism nor Islam, helped me to realized that I am just as selfish, but since God saved me, I got to do the same for others.

Which is nice, which has nothing to do with me, my position... or with the topic at hand.

Truth is truth, doesn't matter if anyone, if Christians, Jews Muslims Atheists disagree.

And if the disagreeing Christians, Jews, Muslim or Atheists are correct... you are not. Empty platitudes don't belong in a serious discussion.

No one knows exactly how powerful God is or what limitations of God is, but one thing is for certain, that what God promised will eventually happen, and God can tweak the world in a certain way to make some of it happen. Just look at the nation of Israel, how impossible for that nation to be again after thousands of year, or how Christianity spread under persecution in the first 200 years.

All of that can be argued about, but none of it really matters for the topic at hand.

One thing that is relevant for the discussion: you are not completely honest - with us or with yourself - in your first sentence. You think you do know enough about "exactly how powerful God is"... he is exactly as powerful as you need him to be for your arguments to work, and exactly as powerless as you need him for the objections against him not to work. Everything else is just quibbling over the details.

And that is what I am objecting here: you argue from both a position of "knowledge" and "ignorance" whenever it suits you.

 

[bling]

I, most likely, would... if I had good reasons to do so. Nothing I have seen here has provided me with good reasons.


So... the great and transcendend God can have "good reasons" that we do not know... but he cannot have ways to implement them that we do not know.

To quote the OP: you can't have it both ways. You cannot argue that there could be a way (a reason) that you do not know... and then support that reasoning by saying that there cannot be a way (a reason), because you do not know.


There are enough Christians out there who argue - backed with verses from the Bible - that God is above logic. I am not here to solve the differences between Christian interpretations.

But I find it quite interesting that God can do each and every thing that an apologet needs to back up his argument... but is powerless the very instant his divine might goes against an apologetic argument.

You do ask a good question that everyone asks sometime in their life, so God addresses this question first off with the story of Adam and Eve the third chapter of the book. Adam and Eve had the world you might think you want.


The story of Adam and Eve (Gen 3)(you do not have to believe it is true to get the message) is told very early, because all individuals ask the question: “Why would a truly Loving God not put us all in a Garden type situation?” The story of A&E explains why we are in our situation:

1. God desires that we all be in a Garden type situation, but God quenches His own desire to provide a better situation for us to fulfill our earthly objective.
   
   
2. Our earthly object is not to “worship God”, run around free, just don’t sin, or be good. God does not need anything from us, but is just trying to give something to us. God is trying to give us the greatest power in all universes; the power that compels God to do all He does, but that power cannot be forced on us (take it or I torture you) or can it be instinctive to man (robotically programmed in humans). It is a gift from God that is totally undeserved and unconditional (so it is Charity), but man has to accept the gift as it was given. Humans, instinctive to survival, (which is good for man to have) do not like to take charity especially if it comes at a huge cost to the giver.
   
   
3. The gift is Godly type Love which is best defined by Christ’s words and deeds. God will do all he can to help those that are willing to accept His help, fulfill their earthly objective of accepting His Love and growing that Love. Included in “all that God will do and allow to happen” are: Christ going to the cross, satan roaming the earth, sin, hell and tragedies of all kinds.
   
   
4. First off; death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people stop doing bad stuff, so death is not “bad” in and of itself.
   
   
5. It is truly unfortunate and not God’s desire that tragedies have to occur. God has to quench His desire to allow tragedies, for man’s sake to help humans accept Love. People have to see, experience, witness, receive and even give Godly type Love, before they will even understand and desire such a Love. Some even after receiving Godly type Love from an individual just like themselves will not want it or explain it away (justifying in their own mind: the person is just trying to gain respect or earn their way to heaven or they are making up for the bad they have done).
   
   
6. Everyone on earth is needy, because everyone has hurt others (sinned) and should feel the burden of the sin at least for a while. Their creator is trying to give them Love in the form of forgiveness so they will Love ( the Bible and life teach us: “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”)
   
   
7. There are a huge amount of sever tragedies in this world, but they are really opportunities for good people to show, give, experience and witness Godly type Love. With all those tragedies some good people are still not responding, so are more needed? It is not our job to provide tragedies, but to solve, reduce, eliminate all we can, by allowing the Spirit to work through us.
   
   
8. Scripture tells us the needy will be with us always on this earth. Christ did not “heal” all those that were sick, but used those around Him to express Godly Love and show us how we are to handle tragedies (serve others with Love). Healing everyone without the witness of Godly type Love being seen in serving individual like any other person would not get people to accept God’s Love in faith and humility.
   
   
9. This world is not our Home and our rest comes later. It is both a privilege and Honor to allow the Holy Spirit to work through us in serving others in this world to best help everyone around us to accept God’s Love.
   
   
10. If you had to find the most Christ Like person in the world today, where would you look?
    

I see Jesus explaining it in John 9: 1-7.

In John 9: 1-7 you have a tragedy (the apostles are asking about a specific tragedy, but they do not know this individual and are thinking in general terms [you need to get into their head]).

Jesus does not say: “this tragedy was caused by: Adam/Eve sinning, Satan, sin, bad luck, God or evil in the world (those have been our answers).”

Jesus does not say: “It was because of the bad that happened”, but does say: “This is for the good that can (and in this case will) happen.”

If you have lived for very long, you have seen good come from some tragedies, but why not all tragedies?

Is someone keeping good from coming from every tragedy?

Everything that is happening in the world right now (disease, natural disasters, and tragedies of all kinds) are not the result of the bad that has happened, but is the result of the GOOD that can happen!

God is quenching His desire to have us all in a Garden type situation to help us fulfill our objective.

Everything starts and ends with the objective;


The objective of humans is to: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others.” The definition of “Love” is key for it is not instinctive or just emotional but it is Love of your enemies, described by Jesus’ life and Paul in 1 Cor. 13 and by John. It requires a free will moral decision to Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season). The fall was tragic and not God’s desire, but may have been both inevitable and necessary. For all humans since the fall that have come to Love God started out by accepting God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.

Needy people create opportunities to experience, see, accept, express and receive Godly type Love. Everyone needs the full opportunity to accept Godly type Love which may have to be done when the person reaches the bottom like the prodigal son.

The innocent that died as the result of God’s action may not really suffer as far as we know.

There would have to be some benefit for humans to have faith that would help them fulfill their objective, over not needing faith, so what is the benefit:

1. We either have faith in self or we put our trust in God. Self-reliance has to do with our money, country, insurance, family, friends, achievements and pride, while reliance on God is just the opposite and requires putting self aside; going from being perceived independent to being dependent on God.

2. Faith in God is a humbling experience, because it is something that the lowliest person can do and actually maybe more likely to do. You are no better than the lowliest believing person when it comes to faith.

3. Believing God/trusting God comes out of an admitted need for help. We all need help all the time, but might not feel or admit that need strongly until in a tragedy and if we live long enough we will all experience tragedies. Turning to God is an easy act of humility (made easy by tragedies), and we need humility to accept charity. God’s forgiveness of our sins is an act of charity (grace/mercy/Love). “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” and thus fulfill our earthly objective by just accepting charity.

4. Faith can produce humility, and humility allows one to accept charity, and forgiveness is Charity and forgiveness produces Love.

 

[Freodin]

snip

I apologize that I will be so short with that text that you obviously put that much effort into... but a short response is all that is needed.

What you wrote there is a potential rationalization for the details of our human existence. Each and every point could be debated, but as before I'd say that goes beyond the scope of the question at hand.

But there is a bigger problem with your whole argument, again an old problem, raised many times and, I assert, still unanswered.

If we accept that for all the reasons you listed above, our existence in the way it is is necessary, you have effectively disproven the existence of "heaven", where nothing on your list is necessary... not even the "Love" that you claimed is the main reason for all that.

 

[dcalling]

Please don't do that. This is meant to be a serious discussion, and there is nothing more humiliating and repulsive in any serious conversation than one side turning to "nothing to discuss, everything already settled, obviously you are wrong, I don't even have to bother making an argument, ha, ha, you lost!"

Don't do that. All you accomplish is giving me another reason to assume that a) you are lying when you claim to have been an atheist and b) Christians are nothing but arrogant know-it-alls.

Give me one conclusive scientific evidence that God does not exist, and you win

And I can give you many reasons why God must exist. I was a former atheist, and the evidence actually win me over to God

 

[[serious]]

Give me one conclusive scientific evidence that God does not exist, and you win

And I can give you many reasons why God must exist. I was a former atheist, and the evidence actually win me over to God

Perhaps you could present what you feel is proof of God's existence

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Scripture tells gives us reasons for our suffering, trials, tragedies, etc. They are:
Philippians 1:29:
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him

(we are refined/made perfect by suffering)

II Timothy 3:12-13:
In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

James 5:13-15:
13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

Hebrews 12:5-7:
And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?

James 1:2-3:
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.

I Peter 1:6-7:
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Romans 5:3-4:
Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.

And as was said this is not our home. We look forward to our eternal home with Christ Who redeemed us. As also was already stated, we were lost to God through b/c of our sin which all people carry in their bodies and which we as Christians have an obligation to defeat, mostly by overcoming evil with good as Romans suggests. It is in heaven that the curse of sin is removed, not until then. More could be said, but I'll leave it here.

 

[Freodin]

Give me one conclusive scientific evidence that God does not exist, and you win

You still claim that you have been an atheist. If that is correct, and you have been an atheist of a kind that I could in any way recognize myself in, you should be able to understand.

First, you are confronted with a claim that you disagree with, disbelieve in, that is contradicting your whole worldview. You say that. And the response you get isn't an argument backing up the unbelievable claim, it is "hah, prove me wrong, you cannot, I win."

What did you think in such a situation? What do you think now in such a situation?

And I can give you many reasons why God must exist. I was a former atheist, and the evidence actually win me over to God

Second, you have been confronted with the claim that your opponents position is obviously right and obviously obvious, there is no (real) disagreement... the case is clear-cut and you are just wrong. No evidence is given. The obvious obviousness is implied, but never explained.
When asked to back up his claims, your opponent simply states that there are many reasons, and that he believes based on evidence... but still he doesn't present the reasons or the evidence.

Where you convinced by the claims of other people having evidence? What do you think today about people claiming to have evidence for their claims?