Evidence of miracles.

[Mountainmike]

Your assertion seems to be that something "medicine" can't explain is a miracle ?

No. Stop personalising it.

I follow the view of hundreds of medics who investigate and a score of top flight medical professors who take the final decision. Have you even studied the process they use? Do you know better than them?.

And as for the ( usual) straw man regarding amputee and limbs, you do not get to dictate what you would like to happen, you can only investigate what does happen.

 

[SelfSim]

No. Stop personalising it.

You're the one who keeps making it personal with your singularly held claims and singular, continuous diatribes on 'miracles'!
This rant you've been on for well over a month(?) now, across multiple threads, is yours .. and yours alone! Face up to it .. and own it, dude!

I follow the view of hundreds of medics who investigate and a score of top flight medical professors who take the final decision. Have you even studied the process they use? Do you know better than them?.

When will you ever realise that the relationship between someone's profession and their claims doesn't matter .. Its how they arrived at their conclusions which does! I couldn't even care less if the person was a garbage collector .. and neither should any other objective thinker!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I would be more interested on the answer for if we or science can't explain something what makes it a miracle instead of just something we can't explain yet because we lack knowledge.

Good luck with that...

 

[Homeowner]

And as for the ( usual) straw man regarding amputee and limbs, you do not get to dictate what you would like to happen, you can only investigate what does happen.

What seems to be happening is that these miracle heals happen at a rate that is statistically insignificant, are labeled miraculous simply because they can't be explained and things we know do not happen with human bodies ever (like limbs growing back) are not happening with "miracles" either. No faith healer is going around emptying hospitals. Why is that ?

Science can already do stuff like reattaching your head to spine.

Toddler's Head Reattached After Internal Decapitation

Miracle heals and those believing in them really need to step up their game if they want to keep relevant in coming years.

 

[Hans Blaster]

And as for the ( usual) straw man regarding amputee and limbs, you do not get to dictate what you would like to happen, you can only investigate what does happen.

Of course, but the lack of limb regenerations is a clue, a hint. Absence *does* mean things. If the only medical miracles are rare, unexplained recoveries (some of which you may believe happen naturally), then why do those recoveries not include limb regrowth? Is it perhaps that they are *all* natural?

 

[Buzzard3]

There is no such evidence. James Randi wrote a book on it, The Faith Healers, and found evidence of fraud and lies, but no miracles.

Oh well, that settles it then ... a miltant atheist who had a particular hatred of the Catholic Church said the Lourdes "miracles" were fake, so that must be the truth. LOL

Incidentally, Angelo Stagnaro said this of James Randi:
"my conversations with Randi were marked by his self-inflated ego, anger, embittered worldview and a remarkable anti-intellectualism."
There’s More to James Randi Than Meets the Eye

 

[Hans Blaster]

Oh well, that settles it then ... an atheist who had a particular hatred of the Catholic Church says the Lourdes "miracles" were faked, so that must be the truth. LOL

Incidentally, Angelo Stagnaro says this of James Randi:
"my conversations with Randi were marked by his self-inflated ego, anger, embittered worldview and a remarkable anti-intellectualism."
There’s More to James Randi Than Meets the Eye

What's an "Angelo Stagnaro"?

 

[Mountainmike]

Is it perhaps that they are *all* natural?

Not according to the many doctors involved in accrediting them.
Immediate and permanent cure is not "natural"

The process is so lengthy and intrusive few want to put themseleves through it.

But of course sceptics much prefer the disgruntled magicians Randi's opinion instead! How can anyone give him equal weight of opinion when compared to the great and good of medical professors of france? That is how unscientific sceptics ALWAYS are against phenomena they do not "like". They prefer Randi's opinion even to a nobel laureate medic who witnessed such a healing and wrote a book on it.

As for limb regrowth - I still say you do not get to decide what phenomena "do", you can only investigate what does actually happen. Can I say I will believe gravity only if the statues at trafalgar square hover for a bit? I cannot impose my will on it. Gravity does what it does. All you can do is observe it. Make models of it. Then discover some of those models are not so good at galaxy rotations! Even then you cannot say why gravity happens. Only what it is normally observed to do.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Not according to the many doctors involved in accrediting them.
Immediate and permanent cure is not "natural"

What is this all about? And why should I trust a doctor pushing a non-natural cure?

 

[Mountainmike]

What is this all about? And why should I trust a doctor pushing a non-natural cure?

"what is this all about".

Its about the exhaustive process used by the lourdes medical commission involving many doctors - hundreds in some cases - (independent of the church), then ratified by all the key medical professors of France. When they say the cure was immediate, permanent and inexplicable. I believe them.

I hope you have studied the process before criticise the decisions..

But you do echo the sceptic mantra. You believe doctors until the day they reach a conclusion you do not like.

 

[Hans Blaster]

"what is this all about".

Its about the exhaustive process used by the lourdes medical commission involving many doctors - hundreds in some cases - (independent of the church), then ratified by all the key medical professors of France. When they say the cure was immediate, permanent and inexplicable. I believe them.

I hope you have studied the process before criticise the decisions..

But you do echo the sceptic mantra. You believe doctors until the day they reach a conclusion you do not like.

Oh, that nonsense again.

 

[Belk]

Oh well, that settles it then ... a miltant atheist who had a particular hatred of the Catholic Church said the Lourdes "miracles" were fake, so that must be the truth. LOL

I must have missed when he took up arms against the catholic church? Or are you using militant to simply denote outspoken?

Incidentally, Angelo Stagnaro said this of James Randi:
"my conversations with Randi were marked by his self-inflated ego, anger, embittered worldview and a remarkable anti-intellectualism."
There’s More to James Randi Than Meets the Eye

Angelo's opinion is noted. However, it should be pointed out that no one said anything about the Lourdes miracles. The book in question dealt specifically with faith healers.

 

[NxNW]

Oh well, that settles it then ...

You're welcome to provide actual evidence instead of attacking Randi.

a miltant atheist who had a particular hatred of the Catholic Church said the Lourdes "miracles" were fake, so that must be the truth. LOL

You're welcome to provide actual evidence instead of attacking Randi.

 

[NxNW]

You believe doctors until the day they reach a conclusion you do not like.

When it can be shown the research is sloppy and self-contradictory, I am skeptical.

 

[NxNW]

However, it should be pointed out that no one said anything about the Lourdes miracles. The book in question dealt specifically with faith healers.

The book specifically address Lourdes, and Randi related something he personally witnessed. A "Christian" shopkeeper had two containers of "blessed" articles, each container supposedly having been blessed with a different prayer, or by a different person (I forget which). He saw the shopkeeper open a bag and dump half the contents into one container, and half into the other. The shopkeeper was just ripping people off, as so many faith-healers do.

 

[Belk]

The book specifically address Lourdes, and Randi related something he personally witnessed. A "Christian" shopkeeper had two containers of "blessed" articles, each container supposedly having been blessed with a different prayer, or by a different person (I forget which). He saw the shopkeeper open a bag and dump half the contents into one container, and half into the other. The shopkeeper was just ripping people off, as so many faith-healers do.

I sit corrected.

 

[Buzzard3]

The book specifically address Lourdes, and Randi related something he personally witnessed. A "Christian" shopkeeper had two containers of "blessed" articles, each container supposedly having been blessed with a different prayer, or by a different person (I forget which). He saw the shopkeeper open a bag and dump half the contents into one container, and half into the other. The shopkeeper was just ripping people off, as so many faith-healers do.

People like that shopkeeper give the Catholic Church a bad name.

 

[Hans Blaster]

People like that shopkeeper give the Catholic Church a bad name.

Nah. The Church hierarchy does perfectly fine on their own.

 

[Mountainmike]

When it can be shown the research is sloppy and self-contradictory, I am skeptical.

It was neither. You prefer the “ evidence” of a disgruntled magician, and like most of you ilk have never read ANY of the books which describe the process or cases, or lengths they go to.

I can only urge you to study it first then comment second ( the evidence that is , not a bad magicians view of it). Your choice of reference says it all.

No doubt you think you know more medicine the Nobel laureate medic who was eyewitness and presiding medic over one of the cases who wrote a book on it. Sceptics are just that arrogant.

 

[Mountainmike]

Nah. The Church hierarchy does perfectly fine on their own.

On that I must agree, some of the time!