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Evidence of miracles.

Mountainmike

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Other than forensic conclusions I have enumerated.
That’s what the guys who analysed it think.
Since you won’t buy the books you will have to accept the précis.

Or not. Your loss.
As for your objections “ chain of custody” not relevant. Falsified? how?

I would love to discuss with someone who puts in the hard yards and researches it. I’m not interested in half baked assumptions that don’t fit the facts.
That’s all I ever see here.

I've put forward my arguments as questions about the claims you've made, based on the absence of verifiable evidence. Neither the answers nor the evidence has been forthcoming, just more vehement assertions mixed with more claims about unrelated miracles. I've already described some of the potential flaws in the story, but if you can't produce the evidence, you can't expect it to be critiqued.
 
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AV1611VET

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So you want people to treat your posts as you treat theres?
I follow a wise rule of thumb here:

Don't let someone drag you down to their level, or they'll beat you to death with experience.

I won't let myself get drawn into a scientific discussion, or I'll get vegomaticked.

It's that simple.
 
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Opdrey

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I follow a wise rule of thumb here:

Don't let someone drag you down to their level, or they'll beat you to death with experience.

I won't let myself get drawn into a scientific discussion, or I'll get vegomaticked.

It's that simple.

You also seem incapable of having a theological discussion.
 
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Mountainmike

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OK, let's talk evidence. What EVIDENCE do you have that the Shroud of Turin's dating was horribly mishandled?

And why do you think the 14-C dating comes in to be almost EXACTLY when the Shroud is first mentioned in any historical document (14th Century)?

What was the problem?

I don’t know why I bother answering, you prefer a priori prejudice to evidence.

But my answer is Books full of evidence.

Read Adler, and Rogers for the chemistry of the sample which was nothing like the rest of the shroud.

The idiots that tested it, not only ignored all the agreed protocols for sampling it, they also excluded all of STURP the only people who knew the textile issues. Why ? For no better reason than the sturp had good reason to think it was genuine. But with nobody who knew anything about the shroud on the team, and completely ignoring the protocols they took one sample near the edge whose spectral properties were nothing like shroud ( Marino and Benford)

they even committed the unforgivable . The cutting of samples done away from camera and the samples didn’t add up to the documented area or weight for which Tite should have been sacked. Not least for telling the team the date of control samples.

Suggest you read Meacham ( the only archeologist involved) for the failure of protocols, failure to do basic chemical profiling, and his priori and posteriori reservations on their intentions and actions.

Read Edices reports for the forensics of the sudarium, whanger et al for the 60 point forensic correspondence to a cloth provably at least a millenium older. That correspondence involved pathology invisible to the naked eye, unknown till the last century. It could not have been faked.

Read various to see the correspondence with the much older Hungarian codex which shows identical damage holes to the shroud. Whoever , depicted the shroud had seen it long before.

Indeed there are eyewitness reports of the shroud in constinantinople before it was sacked by the Templar.

Read Fanti for various other physiochemical data methods that date it as first century.

Various sources eg Marino for the correspondence that showed how the team had no intention of dating it, they intended to debunk it, various on the release of the lab log books under FOI that showed the daters fiddled their numbers to get chi2 to conform , for which they should all have been sacked. The raw chi squared failed consistency. So they faked it.

The date was a bad joke, that shows how academia loses all objectivity around religious objects. They set shroud research back three decades.

So why did it fail? They tested one sample three times, not three tests from different places. but even then they fiddled the date results which failed chi squared and showed a date progression.

The sample tested was unlike the shroud in every regard. It was dyed cotton plus linen. But even the linen had different structure from the rest of shroud which is undyed linen. Linen is like garden cane. It has nodes, a diameter and vanillin at the nodes ( which decays to nothing over time, as it has on the rest of the shroud) see Rogers.

None of those three properties match the body of the shroud. So they tested a mediaeval repair and ignored all the sampling protocols, basic chemical profiles etc, and even cheated the results. An utter disgrace.

Unlike rabid sceptics I like evidence .
That’s why I have at least 20 books on shroud research.
As I told you a good order is study first , comment second, then you would know how fatuous your comments on such as Fatima are.

I bet you don’t read any of them.
 
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Mountainmike

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So @FrumiousBandersnatch
@Opdrey made an amazing statement: do you agree with this….

“there is LITERALLY nothing different between living and non-living chemistry”.

Opdrey thinks either he is dead or his computer is alive, Not sure which. Or that the dead body in the morgue, isn’t dead but alive, perhaps we should ask it to rise and walk…

I am unlucky seemingly, I keep having to buy new computers, I wait for mine to self replicate, evolve and self repair, but it never does.

So frumious - what do you make of what he said?

Clearly in the context I said it, was not “ life force” but there really is a problem of the minimum complexity of cell needed for self replicating and evolving, which is hideously complex and it isn’t helped much by RNA world which even if it existed is still hideously complex. So what is the minimum self replicating / evolving cell? And how did it come from inert chemicals? Opdrey also ignores the problem of consciousness.
 
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TLK Valentine

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You DO realize what Mountain has set up is going to be impossible to respond to, right? The ONLY thing he will accept is if you can find a lab that has taken raw C and H2 and N2 and O2 and, in a set of beakers, created a pangolin. That's the bar.

Mountain lacks the necessary chemistry and biochemistry background to understand that the field is still in the process of pulling all the pieces together.

Unlike MIRACLES which explain EVERYTHING PERFECTLY FROM THE BEGINNING.

Furthermore, the use of the term "miracle" carries the connotation of divine intervention.

If Mountainmike has provided any forensic evidence of God's involvement in the phenomena he can't scientifically explain, the server must've eaten it.
 
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Mountainmike

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Yet another straw man from opdrey. Does he DO critical thinking?

Mountain has correctly stated that what is pure conjecture IS pure conjecture.

That the appearance of the first self reproducing self evolving cell ( ie abiogenesis) is as yet wholly unexplained

You gave no idea what chemistry I know. But since physics and chemistry are similar , and My OH is a chief scientist level molecular biologist that messes with virus genomes I am guessing I know more about life biochemistry than you.

Can we keep conversation to evidence please? Spare me the ad hominems


You DO realize what Mountain has set up is going to be impossible to respond to, right? The ONLY thing he will accept is if you can find a lab that has taken raw C and H2 and N2 and O2 and, in a set of beakers, created a pangolin. That's the bar.

Mountain lacks the necessary chemistry and biochemistry background to understand that the field is still in the process of pulling all the pieces together.

Unlike MIRACLES which explain EVERYTHING PERFECTLY FROM THE BEGINNING.
 
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Opdrey

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So @FrumiousBandersnatch
@Opdrey made an amazing statement: do you agree with this….

“there is LITERALLY nothing different between living and non-living chemistry”.

Opdrey thinks either he is dead or his computer is alive, Not sure which.

Perhaps you are unaware that the chemicals that make up living things are just plain ol' chemicals that we find in non-living things. We find carbohydrates and amino acids on things like meteorites (!)

So frumious - what do you make of what he said?

I'm guessing Frumious will know what was meant.
 
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Opdrey

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You gave no idea what chemistry I know.

I can make some really good estimates.

But since physics and chemistry are similar

Indeed they are related but it would be highly unlikely that you gained sufficient knowledge of chemistry simply by studying physics for your bachelors degree.

, and My OH is a chief scientist level molecular biologist

Not sure what an OH is, but if it isn't you, it isn't transferrable credentials to you.

that messes with virus genomes I am guessing I know more about life biochemistry than you.

Because you know someone who is a chemist?
 
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Opdrey

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I don’t know why I bother answering, you prefer a priori prejudice to evidence.

Interesting.

But my answer is Books full of evidence.

I appreciated the list of books you have. You must have paid a lot of money to get all those books.

I was much more interested in the vague details you pointed at, so I'll spend more time with that.

they even committed the unforgivable . The cutting of samples done away from camera and the samples didn’t add up to the documented area or weight for which Tite should have been sacked. Not least for telling the team the date of control samples.

I have obviously heard the critique that the snippets taken were edge-pieces and were (by necessity) limited. I've also heard that the critique would require "invisible weaving" to make all the parts match up without revealing a repair by medieval nuns. The other ideas (smoke-damage induced change in date and biofilm) were also extensively investigated and found lacking in the present case.

I'm curious about your claim about when and where they cut the cloth. THIS source says: "the original fabric, was sampled by two Italian textile experts in the presence of Tite and Anastasio Ballestrero – a cardinal and the archbishop of Turin."

From what I'm reading here they actually DID take multiple samples, so I don't know why you would be saying that the same sample was analyzed three times. It doesn't take much to run a 14-C so I would be very skeptical about the idea of one sample being shuffled around from Arizona to Oxford and Switzerland where the analyses were run.

Suggest you read Meacham ( the only archeologist involved) for the failure of protocols, failure to do basic chemical profiling,

What do you mean by "chemical profiling" in this regard?

Read Edices reports for the forensics of the sudarium, whanger et al for the 60 point forensic correspondence to a cloth provably at least a millenium older. That correspondence involved pathology invisible to the naked eye, unknown till the last century. It could not have been faked.

What is "pathology invisible to the naked eye"?

Read Fanti for various other physiochemical data methods that date it as first century.

Fanti apparently didn't use 14-C but rather spectroscopic methods. I will have to look this up as I'm unaware of what that method was. It sounds like it included Raman, textile breaking parameters and IR. These are NOT used in the archeological community for dating items (IBID).

It is interesting that you would prefer a NON-STANDARD technique which pleases you to a standard technique which didn't agree with your preconceived notions of what it should be

...the daters fiddled their numbers to get chi2 to conform , for which they should all have been sacked. The raw chi squared failed consistency. So they faked it.

This piqued my interest. I would like to know more about the chi-square statistics. Because it kind of sounds like Michael Tite of the British Museum covered the statistics. I would doubt very highly that someone at that level in their field would monkey with the data. I will have to pull up the Nature article that was written about this.

So why did it fail? They tested one sample three times,

Doesn't sound like they did. But I could be mistaken. Are you saying they clipped one piece and then sent that same piece around to date?

How much push-back do you think the Vatican did against more varying sampling?

None of those three properties match the body of the shroud. So they tested a mediaeval repair

Already discussed and it doesn't sound like they were actually that stupid. Unless the repair was invisible.

and ignored all the sampling protocols,

Then the Church is to be blamed as well since an Archbishop was present for the sampling.

basic chemical profiles etc, and even cheated the results. An utter disgrace.

Unlike rabid sceptics I like evidence .

OK, you said "rabid skeptics" but you just got done with a multi-paragraph SCREED denouncing in insulting and vicious terms, the people who dated the Shroud.

Who is "rabid" in this scenario?

As I told you a good order is study first , comment second, then you would know how fatuous your comments on such as Fatima are.

I bet you don’t read any of them.

Too busy reading chemistry stuff.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I can make some really good estimates.

As can I... and I freely admit my own knowledge of chemistry is somewhere between "rudimentary" and "none."
 
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partinobodycular

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I appreciated the list of books you have. You must have paid a lot of money to get all those books.
Personally I don't give a whit how much somebody spent on books. It just tells me that they're willing to spend an inordinate amount of money on whatever snake oil some charlatan happens to be pushing. It's not a commentary on somebody's expertise, it's just an insight into how far down the rabbit hole they're willing to go in defense of their delusions. It's not laudable, it's just sad.

Without objectivity and skepticism information is a double edged sword.
 
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Opdrey

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As can I... and I freely admit my own knowledge of chemistry is somewhere between "rudimentary" and "none."

The tail will be told when Mountainmike actually says anything that even vaguely looks like real chemistry instead of just hand-waving "chemical profiling".
 
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Opdrey

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Personally I don't give a whit how much somebody spent on books.

Mountainmike apparently does. In an earlier post he waxed on and on about how many books he had and how much they were valued at.

It just tells me that they're willing to spend an inordinate amount of money on whatever snake oil some charlatan happens to be pushing.

I honestly don't fault Mountainmike for amassing a library. We all have one of those for our favorite topics. I know I've got shelf upon shelf about religion and another set of shelves for radiation-topics.

But I will gladly agree with you that simply amassing a library does not mean it is a valuable library. :)

Without objectivity and skepticism information is a double edged sword.

I am finding Mountainmike's constant complaints everyone else fails to follow the evidence quite annoying. It sounds like he might be a "confirmation bias machine". But it is all interesting. It is interesting to see someone so dedicated to the idea that miracles are real and who claims experience in the sciences. It's fascinating.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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So @FrumiousBandersnatch
@Opdrey made an amazing statement: do you agree with this….

“there is LITERALLY nothing different between living and non-living chemistry”.
At the level of chemistry, that's correct, life really is 'just chemistry' - a complex self-replicating redox reaction sequence; there's no mystical additional force that makes living things out of non-living things, vitalism has been refuted. If you pull a single cell, or a billion cells apart, you end up with a heap of chemicals. But life is notable for the way the chemical reactions that 'make it go' are arranged, the way they work together.

Opdrey thinks either he is dead or his computer is alive, Not sure which. Or that the dead body in the morgue, isn’t dead but alive, perhaps we should ask it to rise and walk…

I am unlucky seemingly, I keep having to buy new computers, I wait for mine to self replicate, evolve and self repair, but it never does.

So frumious - what do you make of what he said?
See above. I think your fatuous mockery is misplaced. Life is an emergent phenomenon, arising, as above, out of the way the chemical reactions that 'make it go' are arranged, the way they work together. As they say, 'The whole is greater than the sum of the parts'. See Emergence.

Clearly in the context I said it, was not “ life force” but there really is a problem of the minimum complexity of cell needed for self replicating and evolving, which is hideously complex and it isn’t helped much by RNA world which even if it existed is still hideously complex. So what is the minimum self replicating / evolving cell? And how did it come from inert chemicals? Opdrey also ignores the problem of consciousness.
If there's no 'life force', in what way do you think the chemistry of life is different from the chemistry of non-life? How are the chemical reactions that occur in a living creature different from the chemical reactions that occur when it is dead?

We don't know what the minimum self-replicating cell is (or what units you measure that in). As I already said (why you no listen?), we have made self-assembling lipid vesicles that grow and reproduce - but they don't have genomes - are they alive? What else do they need to fit the definition? What, exactly is the definition?

Life is one of those ill-defined things that becomes fuzzier the closer you look at the boundary between living and non-living. That's why I mentioned viruses. We can all see the difference between children, mature adults, and the elderly, but where do you draw the line between them? There is no line, they're fuzzy categories; if you want a demarcation it will be arbitrary.

I've already given a brief summary of the main hypotheses for how life came about from environmental chemicals (why you no listen?). Btw, not inert chemicals, that would be silly. If you want to know more, the Wikipedia article covers the main hypotheses in reasonable detail and has a lot of useful links and references: Abiogenesis.

Consciousness is interesting, but probably off-topic, and in any case too long for this thread; but if you'd like to start a thread on it I'd be happy to contribute.
 
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Mountainmike

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Spare me the b/s opdrey.
As I once pointed out I passed a 4 sigma IQ test. That means I see through sophistry for what it is. It is also why I see through science for what it is ( and is not)

So after the straw man about similarity in chemistry, you admit the very distinction I made.

That is the distinction of Living vs non living things.
That is also the definition of abiogenesis, the process we discuss.

So on what step did non living chemical processes become living cells?
The accepted definition is the first cell capable of self replication and self evolution. Lose either of them and they cannot be considered to be the start point for life.

That is why a virus may be a product of living things and can replicate in them by hijacking systems but is not generally considered to be living.

So your straw man about my demanding “every step “ is false.
The important step interests me.

I focus on abiogenesis, the step that produced a living cell.
That is already a complex cell , and has problems of conceptual irreducibility. That step has not been observed, cannot be made to happen and there is no conjectured structure or pathway fro non living to it.

My analysis is therefore spot on.
Without a structure , or the process that created that structure from non living constituents or a plausibility demonstration that it could lead to present cells there is no experiment can be done, so it is not a hypothesis,but pure conjecture.

So your post was indeed fatuous.
- identifying a few bricks , is not evidence of self designing or self building houses.
- the polymer I have on my desk is not evidence it evolved into a computer case.



Perhaps you are unaware that the chemicals that make up living things are just plain ol' chemicals that we find in non-living things. We find carbohydrates and amino acids on things like meteorites (!)



I'm guessing Frumious will know what was meant.
 
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Opdrey

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Spare me the b/s opdrey.

May I ask why you are so unrelentingly unpleasant? Is it part of your faith that requires this?

As I once pointed out I passed a 4 sigma IQ test.

Wow. I'm impressed. Are you a member of MENSA? (If you are I'm extremely surprised you didn't mention that!)

That means I see through sophistry for what it is.

Maybe you could look up the term first so you don't misapply it.

It is also why I see through science for what it is ( and is not)

Well, see, unlike you, I actually got graduate degrees. MS and PhD. I didn't have to say "I am a postgraduate..."

So after the straw man about similarity in chemistry,

You don't even know what a "Strawman Argument" is, do you? Don't tell anyone else, they'll knock a couple standard deviations off that IQ score.

And since when are AMINO ACIDS found on meteorites a "Strawman"????

That is the distinction of Living vs non living things.

What would that be? There is LITERALLY nothing about the chemistry of living things that is fundamentally different from basic regular chemistry.
 
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Mountainmike

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See my last post to opdrey.
He accepts the distinction of non living to living things.
It is also the meaning of abiogenesis.

That is the reason I focus on that step which is generally considered to be the first cell that could self replicate and self evolve.
All prior to that were not living.

The structure of that first cell is the critical step. It has the problem of complexity and irreducibility. Too complex and it cannot have come from a random chance meeting of non living things.
Too simple and it cannot replicate or evolve.

If opdrey makes facetious or fatuous statements , so will I.
My remark was the logical conclusion of his statement that the chemistry was the same. Reductio ad absurdum, Either he is dead or his computer is living both of which are clear nonsense.



At the level of chemistry, that's correct, life really is 'just chemistry' - a complex self-replicating redox reaction sequence; there's no mystical additional force that makes living things out of non-living things, vitalism has been refuted. If you pull a single cell, or a billion cells apart, you end up with a heap of chemicals. But life is notable for the way the chemical reactions that 'make it go' are arranged, the way they work together.

See above. I think your fatuous mockery is misplaced. Life is an emergent phenomenon, arising, as above, out of the way the chemical reactions that 'make it go' are arranged, the way they work together. As they say, 'The whole is greater than the sum of the parts'. See Emergence.

If there's no 'life force', in what way do you think the chemistry of life is different from the chemistry of non-life? How are the chemical reactions that occur in a living creature different from the chemical reactions that occur when it is dead?

We don't know what the minimum self-replicating cell is (or what units you measure that in). As I already said (why you no listen?), we have made self-assembling lipid vesicles that grow and reproduce - but they don't have genomes - are they alive? What else do they need to fit the definition? What, exactly is the definition?

Life is one of those ill-defined things that becomes fuzzier the closer you look at the boundary between living and non-living. That's why I mentioned viruses. We can all see the difference between children, mature adults, and the elderly, but where do you draw the line between them? There is no line, they're fuzzy categories; if you want a demarcation it will be arbitrary.

I've already given a brief summary of the main hypotheses for how life came about from environmental chemicals (why you no listen?). Btw, not inert chemicals, that would be silly. If you want to know more, the Wikipedia article covers the main hypotheses in reasonable detail and has a lot of useful links and references: Abiogenesis.

Consciousness is interesting, but probably off-topic, and in any case too long for this thread; but if you'd like to start a thread on it I'd be happy to contribute.
 
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