Evidence of miracles.

[Clizby WampusCat]

What would good evidence of verbal plenary inspiration look like?

I don't know, but that is not my problem. You made the claim you need to provide the evidence for us to evaluate to see if we are convinced by it.

Start with why are you convinced it is true?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Others, when it's explained to them that a given event or series of events didn't generate any evidence, or it did, but the evidence was removed or cleaned up for legitimate reasons, will display their versions of the backfire effect, usually in the form of blasphemy, then go elsewhere and ask or demand evidence for the same event or series of evens from someone else.

Meh. If there's no evidence, there's nothing to show it ever happened.

 

[AV1611VET]

Meh. If there's no evidence, there's nothing to show it ever happened.

Thus the Documentation.

You know?

Notes left behind saying, "This is what I did, when I did it, where I did it, how I did it, what order I did it in, why I did it, how long it took me to do it, and who the eyewitnesses are."

 

[partinobodycular]

Notes left behind saying, "This is what I did, when I did it, where I did it, how I did it, what order I did it in, why I did it, how long it took me to do it, and who the eyewitnesses are."

But if those notes simply amount to..."God said abracadabra"...with no corroborating evidence for their veracity other than the notes themselves, then the odds are that those notes are pure fantasy.

Or as the saying goes..."because the bible tells me so"...isn't a valid argument.

 

[AV1611VET]

But if those notes simply amount to..."God said abracadabra"...with no corroborating evidence for their veracity other than the notes themselves, then the odds are that those notes are pure fantasy.

Did Jesus walk on water? or are you expecting to find footprints on the sea of Galilee?

 

[partinobodycular]

Did Jesus walk on water? or are you expecting to find footprints on the sea of Galilee?

Nope, not expecting to find footprints...but creating the entire universe...now for that I would expect to find something...somewhere. So what have you got?

 

[AV1611VET]

Nope, not expecting to find footprints...but creating the entire universe...now for that I would expect to find something...somewhere.

Why?

Just like He walked on water, He created the universe.

 

[partinobodycular]

Why?

Just like He walked on water, He created the universe.

I asked you what you had in the way of evidence...it appears that the answer is nothing.

Is that correct?

 

[AV1611VET]

I asked you what you had in the way of evidence...it appears that the answer is nothing.

Is that correct?

If you're talking about the Creation Week:

No evidence of the Creation Week was generated, since the Creation Week consisted of a series of one miracle after another that raised the amount of mass/energy in the universe from zero to what it is today.

Ex nihilo creation does not generate evidence.

If you're talking about the Flood:

God cleaned up His mess after the Flood by re-floreating the earth, so as to facilitate its repopulation in the fastest way possible.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If you're talking about the Creation Week:

No evidence of the Creation Week was generated, since the Creation Week consisted of a series of one miracle after another that raised the amount of mass/energy in the universe from zero to what it is today.

Ex nihilo creation does not generate evidence.

If you're talking about the Flood:

God cleaned up His mess after the Flood by re-floreating the earth, so as to facilitate its repopulation in the fastest way possible.

why do you believe this?

 

[AV1611VET]

why do you believe this?

For one thing, I have a specific set of standards I go by:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

For another, the Bible is my Guide for faith and practice.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

For one thing, I have a specific set of standards I go by:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

For another, the Bible is my Guide for faith and practice.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

how does this answer my question of why do you believe the Bible was inspired by god? This just says you believe it was. What convinces you the Bible is true?

 

[AV1611VET]

What convinces you the Bible is true?

The Holy Ghost.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[partinobodycular]

The Holy Ghost.

Question: How am I to know that it's the Holy Ghost, and not simply your own personal ego? For that matter, how do you know?

 

[AV1611VET]

Question: How am I to know that it's the Holy Ghost, and not simply your own personal ego? For that matter, how do you know?

For lack of a better explanation, I say it's by way of impressions on my engrams.

Kind of like a sixth sense.

A "meeting of the minds," so to speak, as your spirit and your mind line up and walk in step together.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The Holy Ghost.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

So the Holy Spirit convinces you the Bible is true and you know the Holy Spirit is real because the Bible says so.

 

[partinobodycular]

Question: How am I to know that it's the Holy Ghost, and not simply your own personal ego? For that matter, how do you know?

For lack of a better explanation, I say it's by way of impressions on my engrams.

Kind of like a sixth sense.

A "meeting of the minds," so to speak, as your spirit and your mind line up and walk in step together.

In other words, you don't know. You're experiencing the exact same sense of self-assurance that everyone experiences from time to time, and you're simply equating it with the Holy Ghost because that suits your own personal narrative. Myself, I think that you're wrong. I think that the Holy Ghost would show a lot more humility.

But then again, humility doesn't seem to be your style.

 

[SkyWriting]

Another thread had a curious title.

Independently REPEATABLE evidence of miracles. Which is a logical contradiction in the sense that by definition researchers cannot repeat the supernatural, otherwise it wouldn’t be supernatural.

So all that can be done is
1/ to identify evidence of the unexplained.
2/ to confirm it is inexplicable, by breaking a fundamental paradigm of science as it is known
( eg prophecy as a simple example because of time arrow, consciousness outside the brain )
3/ that there is no credible means of faking the evidence.
The only repeat possible is reassessment of evidence, not repeat the event.

But 1-3 deal only with defining something as supernatural, not a miracle which ascribes a cause.

Since God is not in the model of science , nor can science proclaim Him as a verdict, a limitation of science, not God.

So all we can do is is state
4/ it occurs in the theistic context
And
5/ the church adds other conditions too


Reality is there is a lot of such evidence.
Take miracle healings at Lourdes.
The lame walk, the blind see.

The process is massive to declare it so, from a large medical panel any qualified medic can join, most are not religious. They declare inexplicable , not just unexplained. ( Lourdes medical commission do that part )

The second declaration is by the church 4/ 5/ which is just as stringent. Many healings declared supernatural by medics, don’t pass the churches criteria as miracle. .

So what is left?
Take this. A pelvic cancer before cancers were in anyway curable had destroyed all the pelvic bone to a leg bone connected only by small amounts of soft tissue.

Journey to Lourdes healing waters.
Bone reappeared albeit a shorter leg. Pain disappeared. Cancer gone.

Appeared in serious medical journals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6027009/pdf/10.1179_0024363913Z.00000000015.pdf

A medical doctor Heads up the commission for typically 10 years a time.
A couple have written books.

The reason God has no need of Miracles is that God has created the laws of nature Himself.
Miracles are simply facts of nature that God sets up the timing to please himself. Then God also sets up the conditions that cause a person to pray for that miracle. God has your entire life to work with to influence you to pray. Then you pray for a miracle. As God has planned, your prayer precedes the chosen event. (Miracle) God does all this just to reveal that He is there for you.

How can God heal a bone instantly? He doesn't. Every cell in you body has the DNA coding needed to regrow you entire body from scratch. If God chooses to, He simply calls on your DNA to regrow any tissue that needs repair. This could happen at any speed He choses. In my experience, Miracles happen at a "natural" rate and speed. They just "happen" hours, weeks, or months before you expect them to happen. You just see the finished result and are astounded by the "instant" healing that actually started long before.

I'm not "explaining away" miracles. I'm telling you that God had already begun a [miracle healing] weeks before. You just got informed by God about the "miracle" just before "the reveal" at the end. And you are astounded. God is pleased to "answer your prayer" as it suits him. But to keep you properly humble he doesn't give you the power to have every prayer answered. That's power that is not healthy for man to have.

In no time man would be going around
"I'm a healer! Send me your sick! Only $100.00 donation this week only!"

God only answers prayer when you get 100% out of the way.
Which is very hard to do, but very amazing when you can accomplish it.

 

[AV1611VET]

So the Holy Spirit convinces you the Bible is true and you know the Holy Spirit is real because the Bible says so.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[SkyWriting]

Nope, not expecting to find footprints...but creating the entire universe...now for that I would expect to find something...somewhere. So what have you got?

The entire universe.
That's a lot of material, that is entirely composed of energy, to be looking at
and unable to grasp that it had to come from some kind of effort.

So there is the fact of all the energy.(light)
and there is the fact that all the energy somehow was converted to stable matter. (stuff)
Then you have to imagine the (stuff) got organized to form planets (the Cosmos)
And when we look at energy, we don't see any natural tendency for energy to form matter.
Nor any natural tendency for matter to organize into a "system" that includes life.

And of all the matter and energy in the entire Cosmos
you get the privilege of being able to admire it all.

Most matter is not so "lucky".
Most matter has to just sit there, for eternity, waiting for you to admire it.
It's a good thing that all the matter in the Cosmos doesn't get to vote.
It might not like how little man appreciates it's very existence.