Evidence of Christs coming

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 9, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
That is why I put up links to threads I have on it.

Okay...

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 9, 2019

shilohsfoal said: ↑
Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations.

BABerean2 said:
Do you believe the text above was not fulfilled during 70 AD?

Yes, that was indeed fulfilled during the 70ad siege of Jerusalem.

It is also showing in Revelation 13:10, as is much of Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourse........

I have a discussion thread on that for those interested:

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68 Revelation 11:2 Revelation 13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

Deu 28:55
“so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat,
because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

...............

mkgal1 · Mar 9, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
Jesus says it shall be a visual sighting by they in the verse.

No, He didn't - you are superimposing what you've been taught and *believing* that's what is in the text.....but it's a presumption that's causing you to arrive at that conclusion. It's not there.

If it WERE a visual sighting - then why did Jesus warn about not going out when people suggested there were "Messiah sightings"?

Matthew 24:23-36 ~ “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it’ ” .

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 9, 2019

mkgal1 said:
No, He didn't - you are superimposing what you've been taught and *believing* that's what is in the text.....but it's a presumption that's causing you to arrive at that conclusion. It's not there.

If it WERE a visual sighting - then why did Jesus warn about not going out when people suggested there were "Messiah sightings":

Matthew 24:23-36 ~ “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it’ ” .

What Paul says about the Second Coming of Christ is sorted out in 1 and 2 Thessalonians. He describes there what will happen. It will be a general, actual world-changing event and everyone, believer and sinner will know all about it when it happens. We won't need to take anyone's word for it that Jesus has come again. We will all see Him for ourselves, and will welcome Him with open arms, or run from Him terrified.

The fact that the gospel is still being preached and folk are still coming to Christ and getting saved, means that the Second Coming hasn't happened yet, because when it happens, the day of grace will be over, the preaching of the gospel will be no more, and no one else will be saved.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 9, 2019

mkgal1 said:
No, He didn't - you are superimposing what you've been taught and *believing* that's what is in the text.....but it's a presumption that's causing you to arrive at that conclusion. It's not there.

If it WERE a visual sighting - then why did Jesus warn about not going out when people suggested there were "Messiah sightings":

Matthew 24:23-36 ~ “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it’ ” .

shilohsfoal · Mar 9, 2019

Oscarr said:
How about having a read of 1 and 2 Thessalonians? Maybe you haven't read that far in the New Testament yet!

If all else fails, read the Bible!

I just quoted Jesus testimony saying the wicked are taken away.
Those who are oblivious to the situation shall be caught off guard just as the days of Noah,so shall Jesus coming be.You can believe Jesus or you can believe the preacher youve paid to tell you what you want to hear.

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 9, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
I just quoted Jesus testimony saying the wicked are taken away.
Those who are oblivious to the situation shall be caught off guard just as the days of Noah,so shall Jesus coming be.You cam believe Jesus or you can believe the preacher youve paid to tell you what you want to hear.

What preacher is that? I don't know of any preacher that I've paid money to give me what I want to hear. I sincerely wonder what voice you are listening to.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 9, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
I just quoted Jesus testimony saying the wicked are taken away.
Those who are oblivious to the situation shall be caught off guard just as the days of Noah,so shall Jesus coming be.You can believe Jesus or you can believe the preacher youve paid to tell you what you want to hear.

You have proof of that?

shilohsfoal · Mar 9, 2019

Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark.

Matthew 24:39 And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:40 Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Which is right and which is wrong?,to rebuke when one has erred ,or to decieve?

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 9, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
Matthew 24:40 Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
Which is right and which is wrong?,to rebuke when one has erred ,or to decieve?

Lo and behold. I just happen to have a thread on that........Mind voting on it?

MATT 24 LUKE 17 "ONE TAKEN AND ONE LEFT" DISCUSSION

LittleLambofJesus said:
I just added a poll to the thread and it will allow voters to change their vote if they want to.

What does Jesus mean by "one taken, one left". Are the ones left "the bodies" and the other taken "captives"?

I have a post on these verses on my harmonizing of the Jerusalem/Temple discourse

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
POST #53

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

28 for wherever the carcass/body may be, there shall the eagles<105> be gathered together.
40 Then two will be in the field: one is taken, and one is left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one is taken, and one is left.
42 Therefore keep watch, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.

Luke 17
34 ‘I say to you, In that night,
there shall be two men on one couch, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
35 two women shall be grinding at the same place together, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
36 two men shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left.’
37 And they answering say to him, ‘Where, sir?’ and he said to them,
‘Where the body<4983> [is], there will the eagles<105> be gathered together.’

Luke 21:
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,

21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,

The commentary site below is the 1st that came up doing a google search of that event:

the one taken the other left gospels - Google Search

https://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/...will-be-left-misinterpreted-bible-passages-8/

Popular Misinterpretation
In the fanciful world of Pre-Trib dispensationalist theology, this verse as been interpreted as a reference to the “Rapture of the Church” in which Jesus comes from heaven to “catch up” his church in the air and take them back to heaven with him, leaving the unbelievers behind to suffer the wrath of God, poured out in all its gory goodness for a short but hellish period of time known as the “Great Tribulation” (this framework rests on a host of other misinterpreted passages—most notably Daniel 9:24–27—but we’ll just stick to this one for the time being). According to this interpretation, the fulfillment of Jesus’ words will look something like this:.....................

This translation is a bit clearer: it’s better to be in the latter group than the former, better to be “let go” or “released” than “taken” or “seized.” This runs completely counter to the picture in modern imagination, which relies upon the idea that the righteous will be taken and the wicked “left behind” to suffer in the Tribulation. What’s remarkable to me is how ingrained this interpretation has gotten within the Evangelical world, despite it being a relatively new theological perspective with less than 200 years of history and despite the fact that it reads this “proof text” passage to mean the opposite of what it means in context.

Conclusion
Once again, we have found that a passage dealing with eschatology is interpreted to mean the opposite of what it actually says. In this case, we have a passage talking about the destruction of the wicked at the Parousia (Second Coming) that has been creatively transformed into a story about people disappearing and leaving the wicked on earth. Why is this important? Well, for one, a proper reading of these passages is a safeguard against predictions by the likes of Harold Camping and Hal Lindsay, since these predictions consistently rest on misinterpretations of this and other passages. If the foundation is bad, the building is worse. It also should be understood that these passages are a promise of divine protection, not a promise that God will remove his people from times of trouble—something that quite simply has never been the case. Instead, Jesus promises that God will look after his people through tribulation rather than removing them from troubled times. This is a critical point, as it applies to every generation and not only to that one generation lucky enough to miss out on all the tough stuff (such a theology only works in the prosperous West to begin with). So next time someone asks you if you’ll be “left behind,” answer, “I certainly hope so!”
.

One taken and one left

*
The one taken is saved and the one left is the body/corpse
2 vote(s)
66.7%
The one taken is the body/corpse and the one left is saved
0 vote(s)
0.0%
I don't know but am willing to learn
0 vote(s)
0.0%
It doesn't matter
0 vote(s)
0.0%
other
1 vote(s)
33.3%

shilohsfoal · Mar 9, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Lo and behold. I just happen to have a thread on that........Mind voting on it?

MATT 24 LUKE 17 "ONE TAKEN AND ONE LEFT" DISCUSSION

One taken and one left

*
The one taken is saved and the one left is the body/corpse
2 vote(s)
66.7%

The one taken is the body/corpse and the one left is saved
0 vote(s)
0.0%

I don't know but am willing to learn
0 vote(s)
0.0%

It doesn't matter
0 vote(s)
0.0%

other
1 vote(s)
33.3%

Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Matthew 24:38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark.

Matthew 24:39 And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Im not looking for a vote on who believes what.Im talking about what Jesus is teaching here.

Who was taken away by the flood in the verse.Was Noah taken away by the flood,or was everyone who missed the boat taken away?

Jesus is teaching us.
We only need listen.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 9, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.'"

Is the wheat gatherd first or the tares ?

The 2 witnesses/wheat/sealed 144,000 are harvested first:

Why does Luke 21:27 use the singular "cloud" instead of "clouds"?

Luke 21:27 ‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

Revelation 14:
14 And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the land, and the land was reaped.

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.
==================================
Then the unsealed Jews are turned over to the wrath:

Matthew 3:7
Yet seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming upon his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who shows to ye to be fleeing from the being about<3195> wrath?
Luke 3:7
Then he said to the outgoing throngs to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers!
Who shows to ye to be fleeing from the being about wrath?

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [1 Thess 2:16]

Revelation 14:
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.
18 Then another Messenger, the One who has power over fire, came out from the Altar; and He called with a loud voice to Him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in thy sharp sickle! and gather! the clusters from the Vine of the land, because her grapes are ripe.”
19 So the Messenger swung his sickle to the land and gathered the clusters from the Vine of the land, and threw them into the great Wine-press of the wrath of God.
20 And the Wine-press was trodden outside the City, and blood came out from the Wine-press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

shilohsfoal · Mar 9, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
The 2 witnesses/wheat/sealed 144,000 are harvested first:

Why does Luke 21:27 use the singular "cloud" instead of "clouds"?

Luke 21:27 ‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;

Revelation 14:
14 And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle
16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the land, and the land was reaped.

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.
==================================
Then the unsealed Jews are turned over to the wrath:

Matthew 3:7
Yet seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming upon his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers!
Who shows to ye to be fleeing from the being about<3195> wrath?
Luke 3:7
Then he said to the outgoing throngs to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers!
Who shows to ye to be fleeing from the being about wrath?

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [1 Thess 2:16]

Revelation 14:
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.
18 Then another Messenger, the One who has power over fire, came out from the Altar; and He called with a loud voice to Him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in thy sharp sickle! and gather! the clusters from the Vine of the land, because her grapes are ripe.”
19 So the Messenger swung his sickle to the land and gathered the clusters from the Vine of the land, and threw them into the great Wine-press of the wrath of God.
20 And the Wine-press was trodden outside the City, and blood came out from the Wine-press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

Did you read the verse?

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.'"

According to the verse
Which of these two are gatherd first,the wheat or the weeds?

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 9, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
Did you read the verse?

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.'"

According to the verse
Which of these two are gatherd first,the wheat or the tares?

I am thinking the tares were gathered and bound for burning in the siege of 70ad Jerusalem after the wheat were taken to safety.

Matthew 13:
30 ‘Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,
“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them,
but gather the wheat into my barn.”

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover...........

The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also, his friendly direction,
that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition.
===============================
Which is the fulfillment of Ezekiel 22. Always wondered how God was going to gather the Jews into Jerusalem and behold! Feast of the Passover!

Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam! 18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace — to blow on it fire, to melt it,
So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath,
And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh,
I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’

2534 chemah or (Dan. 11:44) chemaC {khay-maw'}; from 3179;
heat; figuratively, anger, poison (from its fever):--
anger, bottles, hot displeasure, furious(-ly, -ry), heat, indignation, poison, rage, wrath(- ful). See 2529.
H2534 occurs 124 times in 117 verses
================
And this is that fulfillment:

Revelation 15:1
And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Seven Messengers having seven stripes/blows, the last,
that in them is finished the fury<2372> of the GOD

2372. thumos thoo-mos' from 2380;
passion (as if breathing hard):--fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare 5590.
Used in only 1 verse of the Gospels and 10 verses of Revelation
G2372 occurs 18 times in 18 verses

shilohsfoal · Mar 10, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
I am thinking the tares were gathered and bound for burning in the siege of 70ad Jerusalem after the wheat were taken to safety.

Matthew 13:
30 ‘Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,
“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them,
but gather the wheat into my barn.”

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover...........

The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also, his friendly direction,
that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition.
===============================
Which is the fulfillment of Ezekiel 22. Always wondered how God was going to gather the Jews into Jerusalem and behold! Feast of the Passover!

Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam! 18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace — to blow on it fire, to melt it,
So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath,
And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh,
I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’

2534 chemah or (Dan. 11:44) chemaC {khay-maw'}; from 3179;
heat; figuratively, anger, poison (from its fever):--
anger, bottles, hot displeasure, furious(-ly, -ry), heat, indignation, poison, rage, wrath(- ful). See 2529.
H2534 occurs 124 times in 117 verses
================
And this is that fulfillment:

Revelation 15:1
And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Seven Messengers having seven stripes/blows, the last,
that in them is finished the fury<2372> of the GOD

2372. thumos thoo-mos' from 2380;
passion (as if breathing hard):--fierceness, indignation, wrath. Compare 5590.
Used in only 1 verse of the Gospels and 10 verses of Revelation
G2372 occurs 18 times in 18 verses

So you believe the harvest was in 70 ad?
Im shocked.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 10, 2019

shilohsfoal said:
So you believe the harvest was in 70 ad?
Im shocked.

Start a thread on it.

DavidPT · Mar 10, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Where does it say this was a visual sighting? "See" can mean an understanding as well. I don't see the wind.....but when my roof blows off during a hurricane I "see" or "know" there was a great wind.

Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Obviously the 'they' are meaning all the tribes of the earth. The first question one should be asking themselves, how many do all the tribes of the earth consist of? Just a cpl of people, or a vast number of people? If the latter, does it seem more reasonable that a vast number of people will visibly see or not visibly see Christ coming?

Something else to keep in mind, this coming is after the trib of those days. Wherever one places the trib of those days, and whatever one takes the trib of those days to be referring to, for example, some take them to mean the events leading up to 70 AD, all the tribes of the earth see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory, after and not during the trib of those days. But it is also after the stars fall from heaven, etc, which takes place immediately after the trib of those days, being when all the tribes of the earth initially see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

So maybe it makes sense to you that the coming meant is not meaning visible, but according to the chronology of events, and the fact it involves all the tribes of the earth seeing this, how can it not be a visible coming that is in view? And since chronology does matter sometimes, in this case it debunks that Matthew 24:30 has anything to do with the events of 70 AD.

DavidPT · Mar 10, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Some partial preterists I've heard of (I think like Kenneth Gentry) notes that this particular instance, in this particular context, refers to the coming judgment on the nation of Israel, instead of his second advent. We see an example of this in other places of Scripture, like Babel (let us come down and confuse their language).

Anyone with even minimal reading comprehension can see in the text that this coming is after the trib of those days. If some take the trib of those days to be involving the events leading up to 70 AD, IOW involving judgment on the nation of Israel, it is obviously a contradiction to conclude this coming was judgment on the nation of Israel, because no matter how you look at it, this coming would be after the judgment on the nation of Israel, therefore can't also be the judgment on the nation of Israel at the same time.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is no getting around it. This coming meant, it is clearly and undeniably after the trib of those days and after the sun be darkened, etc. When does the text indicate the sun be darkened? Immediately after the tribulation of those days. This obviously means the trib of those days, and the sun being darkened, etc, have to be fulfilled first before the coming meant in verse 30 can even be fulfilled.

Does it really make good sense, assuming the trib of those days involved judgment on the nation of Israel, and assuming the coming in verse 30 is not a visible coming, that the tribes of the earth would see this coming, as in understand, but not during the judgment on the nation of Israel though, but afterwards instead?

DavidPT · Mar 10, 2019

mkgal1 said:
No, He didn't - you are superimposing what you've been taught and *believing* that's what is in the text.....but it's a presumption that's causing you to arrive at that conclusion. It's not there.

If it WERE a visual sighting - then why did Jesus warn about not going out when people suggested there were "Messiah sightings"?

Matthew 24:23-36 ~ “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it’ ” .

Why do you assume Matthew 24:23-36 somehow proves the coming in Matthew 24:30 must not be a visible coming? The seeing of Christ in verse 30 involves the real Christ. The seeing of Christ in Matthew 24:23-36 does not involve the real Christ. What's interesting though, Matthew 24:23-36 involves the visible sightings of those proclaiming to be Christ, yet in verse 30 you are arguing that the sighting is not even visible, but means to understand instead. See can for sure mean to understand in some contexts, so not arguing that see has to always mean as in visibly. But as to Matthew 24:30 though, I don't see how the seeing of the coming can't be meaning visible in this case.

DavidPT · Mar 10, 2019

parousia70 said:
Sure. No problem
That's easy.
All you need to do is provide me the eyewitness accounts of these previous OT cloud comings, I will then quickly provide the same for Christ's NT Cloud coming:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)
(Side note on Ezekiel 5:7-9, Notice how Ezekiel states that the 6th century Judgment upon Israel would be the worst of God's Judgments that "ever was, nor ever shall be" - Interesting huh?)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

After David defeated Saul (which I hope we can agree is already fulfilled and not future to us) He described that Battle this way: (2 Samuel 22:8-16)

8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

Please provide the eyewitness accounts of all these times God come down to earth, visibly seen upon a cherub, riding a cloud, shooting actual arrows, bearing his arm before every eye, drawing forth His sword, bowing the heavens and laying the foundation of the entire earth bare, and kindling actual fire with the breath of His nostrils.

Remember, don't attempt to change the above words to corrupt the message!

Provide the eyewitness accounts from History...Certainly, such a monumental, GLOBALLY VISIBLE event of God's actual ARM being seen by every eye of every person in every nation (Isiah 52:10) would have been recorded in History Books around the world...

Please provide the eyewitness accounts, or else retract your OP requirement.

You don't get a special exception.
You too are held to abide by your own rule, friend.

While you do make a fair point with all of this, chronology in this case tends to prove that the coming in Matthew 24:30 must be meaning visible. But if not, what non literal coming of Christ occurred after the trib of those days, and after the sun be darkened, etc? What major past event/s possibly explain that? It had to be major if all the tribes of the earth at the time saw the Son of man coming in the clouds. Coming to do what though, keeping in mind that the trib of those days would not be this major event since it would already be in the past at this point? What other major event/s followed after the trib of those days, assuming the trib of those days involved judgment on the nation of Israel in the first century leading up to what happened in 70 AD?

Evidence of Christs coming

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Senior Veteran

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Jacks or better to open

Senior Veteran

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Jacks or better to open

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Jacks or better to open

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Jacks or better to open

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Jacks or better to open

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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