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Evidence from Sola Scriptura - right from the Bible itself

Albion

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"Ignore the visible Church." "Critical in bringing together." This is wording that is open to a lot of quibbling and second-guessing, I'd think. But if the issue is what I believe, I believe what my church and the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion hold, which is that Scripture is inerrant in matters of faith and contains all that is necessary for salvation. Various councils, both the ecumenical councils and others, codified the Bible, wrote the Creed, and determined the Church's position on various matters. That's important, yes.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I don't personally believe, nor do I know anyone else that does, that the ECFs were all of one accord on everything or that they formed a consensus of belief. We find elements of Truth in all of them, though, and places where they weren't so...great. Which is human. None of the ECFs was Pope, if I recall right. Therefore, not infallible. But where they are in agreement with the teaching of the Church, we quote them freely.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Are the 39 Articles Biblical?
 
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Albion

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The significance of that, however, is that many people -- here on CF and elsewhere -- cite a single ECF, or two, and insist that "this proves doctrine X was believed in by the church from the beginning." In reality, and as you agree here, it does no such thing. They're scattered comments.

It might show that something was KNOWN at a certain date, but it does nothing for continuity or catholicity or to establish what the Apostles taught. Yet this is the way that "Tradition" creates doctrines.
 
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patricius79

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I'm not hearing answers to some of my questions. Maybe I missed something. If Sola Scriptura is a true doctrine, why did the Bereans need the oral Word to understand the Bible?

Another question: why does Paul tell us to hold fast to the traditions as they were given, whether given orally or by letter?
 
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BobRyan

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I'm not hearing answers to some of my questions. Maybe I missed something. If Sola Scriptura is a true doctrine, why did the Bereans need the oral Word to understand the Bible?

Are you using circular reasoning? These are not Christians asking Paul to teach them and then just accepting whatever he said - because of course "he is the teacher explaining". But rather these are non-Christians and they are not convinced at all that whatever Paul might say is even true. They first have to check it out - to see if scripture condemns or supports his teaching.

That is very different from coming to Paul as "Their Apostle" and asking him to teach because of course whatever he would teach surely must be true.

in this cross-denominational model the person from the "other denomination" can have more information or better understand... they can also be horribly contradicted by the Bible. It can go either way. And to know - one first has to "test".

The straw man - is the idea that even doing that test - STILL they must learn nothing from what Paul says even if the Bible affirms his teaching. That would be appear to be in your question - but is not the SS doctrine at all.

Another question: why does Paul tell us to hold fast to the traditions as they were given, whether given orally or by letter?

As stated before - SS does not say "all tradition will fail the test of scripture".

Not sure why this keeps coming up.

Tradition that is good should pass the test of scripture. IF it does not - then it is not good.

And of course whatever they had in the first century as doctrine is known to us at his late date ONLY in scripture. So even that is moot.
 
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BobRyan

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I don't personally believe, nor do I know anyone else that does, that the ECFs were all of one accord on everything or that they formed a consensus of belief. We find elements of Truth in all of them, though, and places where they weren't ..

indeed ... a bit dicey. Not only that but you have the confirmed forgeries and the seriouslyhh-doubted - and the hoped-is-true in that list.
 
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patricius79

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I don't see how that answers my question. I'm asking why the Bereans didn't understand the Gospel from the Bible alone, but, instead, from the Bible under the light of the oral Word preached by Paul and Silas.

Yes, the Bereans tested the oral Word against Scripture; and it agreed, as it always does.

If the Bereans had decided that it did not agree, they would have been wrong.

This all would seem to support the Catholic Church's position.



"And of course whatever they had in the first century as doctrine is known to us at his late date ONLY in scripture."

I know you are sincere and are trying to follow your conscience. But I don't think the Bible says that.

Paul doesn't say that his oral traditions might contradict Scripture.

He says that we are to hold fast to the traditions as they were given, whether orally or by letter.

This is the living and effective word of God for all time: Sacred Tradition, of which Scripture is a crucial part.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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No you don't have to waste time posting anything.

Being disingenuous is not a great character trait... if you have no intention of reading something, then be honest about it and don't ask for it.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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And even if there were no divisions at the time os Scripture, there were many, many denominational differences in the next 2-3 centuries before the actions by Constantine and by the councils.

Basing your doctrines on a Roman Caesar and the people he decided to give the spiritual power to in the empire is not sound... I'd rethink that if I were you.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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God could have used an illiterate peasant woman to create canon if He so chose... it does not imply supreme authority on everything.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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But he didn't.
No, but my point is, that just because God used the early church to accomplish some of His plan, doesn't automatically mean they are now the infallible organ of truth... that is arrogance.
 
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BobRyan

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No, but my point is, that just because God used the early church to accomplish some of His plan, doesn't automatically mean they are now the infallible organ of truth... that is arrogance.

Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews" in John 4 - around the very time they were about to have him crucified. Within a few short years. So they were accomplishing some "good" while at the same time they were pursuing some bad ideas.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Are you using circular reasoning? These are not Christians asking Paul to teach them and then just accepting whatever he said - because of course "he is the teacher explaining". But rather these are non-Christians and they are not convinced at all that whatever Paul might say is even true. They first have to check it out - to see if scripture condemns or supports his teaching.

That is very different from coming to Paul as "Their Apostle" and asking him to teach because of course whatever he would teach surely must be true.

in this cross-denominational model the person from the "other denomination" can have more information or better understand... they can also be horribly contradicted by the Bible. It can go either way. And to know - one first has to "test".

The straw man - is the idea that even doing that test - STILL they must learn nothing from what Paul says even if the Bible affirms his teaching. That would be appear to be in your question - but is not the SS doctrine at all.

I don't see how that answers my question. I'm asking why the Bereans didn't understand the Gospel from the Bible alone

They used the "Bible alone' to test Paul. They did not ask Paul to show them that the Bible supported him by believing whatever he said that the Bible said. Rather to "test" to "See IF" they had NOT use Paul.

Your point above conflates the idea of testing Paul vs -- not ever learning anything from Paul since the Bible is the only source of learning. And that is an "insert" into SS that is not there. SS does not mean that you cannot learn from any source but the Bible. It is that you have to test all sources by the Bible.

Two very different concepts.

Yes, the Bereans tested the oral Word against Scripture; and it agreed, as it always does.

It failed utterly to agree in Mark 7:6-13 as Christ points out.

Those Jews in Berea could not assume that scripture was always going to confirm whatever someone on the street was teaching. That is not a "test" that would just be circular reasoning.

Paul says "even if WE (apostles) or an angel from heaven should preach to you a different Gospel - let him be accursed" Gal 1:6-9.

Paul did not say "accept whatever we apostles say - no need to check it out - it can never be in error if it comes from the Apostles or an angel from heaven"

Those are opposite teachings.
 
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patricius79

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I'm hearing you say we can learn from traditions so long as they fit with Scripture. But I heard you state this oral traditions, too: ""And of course whatever they had in the first century as doctrine is known to us at his late date ONLY in scripture."


It failed utterly to agree in Mark 7:6-13 as Christ points out.

In Mark 7 the oral Word of Christ entirely agreed with Scripture, as with the Bereans. Sacred Tradition always agrees with Scripture, because Scripture is a part of it.

What didn't agree were the false oral traditions such as the Korban rule which went against Sacred Tradition (the Word of God)


I see your point. And that Gospel that they preached was preached orally, right?

Paul did not say "accept whatever we apostles say - no need to check it out - it can never be in error if it comes from the Apostles or an angel from heaven"

Judging by 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul would say that we should test the teachings of people against what was handed on by the Apostles, whether orally or by letter.

But I heard you state: ""And of course whatever they had in the first century as doctrine is known to us at his late date ONLY in scripture."

But where does the Bible say that? And how, then, are we living out 2 Thessalonians 2:15 today?
 
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Root of Jesse

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Test them and see.
I don't have the time for that. I've been non-Catholic and when I had a choice, I chose the Truth, thanks.
 
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