Evidence for the age of the Earth/universe

[Euryale]

The best evidence for a young earth is the Bible!

Exactly, and that is the problem.

 

[1denomination]

WEll God bless you if you can walk that fine line and not fall into judging

How does one witness if he is unable to discern a need for salvation. I belive the book of James says it best chapter 2 verse 19. Just because a person claims to belive in Christ does not mean they do not have a need for salvation, not to mention countless scripture on false phophets. I belive it is our job as Christians to discern such things or "judge" if you will.


Forgive me Vance I know its a little off topic. Nice thread, although I'm still a young earther, but I don't think that really matters. Christ is still the giver of salvation regardless of the age of the world.


God Bless you my brother

 

[Vance]

Hey, no problem, the thread meanders where it will. :0)

 

[1denomination]

Looks to me it has quit meandering at all. Dont worry maybe it evolved into another thread. I think ill go find it. HAHA just playing man dont hit me.

 

[herev]

How does one witness if he is unable to discern a need for salvation. I belive the book of James says it best chapter 2 verse 19. Just because a person claims to belive in Christ does not mean they do not have a need for salvation, not to mention countless scripture on false phophets. I belive it is our job as Christians to discern such things or "judge" if you will.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.

While James and Paul both suggest that we are to judge the actions of those who call themselves a brother or sister in Christ, I am unaware of anyplace that actually suggests that it is anyone's job except The Almighty to judge one's salvation.
as to the false prophets, yes, we are to judge the sprits (1 John 4:1), but we are still not to judge another's salvation. I am curious as to how you plan to take on such a role and then my friend, how will you ever give it up when God wants it back?

 

[herev]

Dont worry maybe it evolved into another thread. I think ill go find it.

emphasis mine

so you believe in evolution, too?

 

[1denomination]

While James and Paul both suggest that we are to judge the actions of those who call themselves a brother or sister in Christ,

ok so I cant judge whether a person does or doesnt have a need for salvation but i can judge their actions (actions = Works) which is the very thing the almighty will judge them for (Rev 20:13). and also explain to me then who what was Peter talking about in 1 Peter 4:6, and who are the dead(I dont belive he means physically) and who is peter to judge whether thay are spirtually dead or not he is not the almighty.

yes, we are to judge the sprits (1 John 4:1), but we are still not to judge another's salvation. I am curious as to how you plan to take on such a role and then my friend, how will you ever give it up when God wants it back?

So the false prohets that the bible speaks of going to hell, I'm not allowed to say hey these guys need salvation maybe i should witness to them. I truly think you have taken me out of context or once again i have failed to articulate myself. Lets say you met someone (lets just say)who was a professing athiest would it not be safe to assume this person was in need of salvation,realizing the moment you assume this you have just passed judgement upon this persons salvation. The judgment being wether or not they have it. i just think its going to be hard to witness if you dont know who to winess to. soft of like the iron sharpens iron thing from proverbs 27:17. how can you sharpen something if you dont know its dull. God bless

 

[herev]

witnessing and judging are not the same thing. We should witness to anyone who we think needs to hear a word from God. As a preacher, I witness every Sunday morning--and in my church, I dare say the majority probably are saved, but again, not for me to judge. My job is to proclaim to ALL and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting, and let Jesus do the saving. And as I said, yes we can judge actions, but not someone's salvation. Peter does not address anyone specifically and say You, who are spiritually dead (which even then would not be the same thing as damned)--he speaks of a group (which may, indeed, in some people's interpretation be the physical dead). And if a person is a professing atheist, we don't have to judge, they have told us. The conversation you entered into was about whether or not we can judge one's salvation--who is saved and who isn't. While of course, I may be taking you out of context, I am trying to place it in the conversation you entered into between myself and Micaiah. Perhaps it is you that have taken it out of context? I don't know, I'm not in your head.

ok so I cant judge whether a person does or doesnt have a need for salvation but i can judge their actions (actions = Works) which is the very thing the almighty will judge them for (Rev 20:13). and also explain to me then who what was Peter talking about in 1 Peter 4:6, and who are the dead(I dont belive he means physically) and who is peter to judge whether thay are spirtually dead or not he is not the almighty.


So the false prohets that the bible speaks of going to hell, I'm not allowed to say hey these guys need salvation maybe i should witness to them. I truly think you have taken me out of context or once again i have failed to articulate myself. Lets say you met someone (lets just say)who was a professing athiest would it not be safe to assume this person was in need of salvation,realizing the moment you assume this you have just passed judgement upon this persons salvation. The judgment being wether or not they have it. i just think its going to be hard to witness if you dont know who to winess to. soft of like the iron sharpens iron thing from proverbs 27:17. how can you sharpen something if you dont know its dull. God bless

 

[1denomination]

witnessing and judging are not the same thing. We should witness to anyone who we think needs to hear a word from God. As a preacher, I witness every Sunday morning

My friend we are all preachers ( all those within the faith of course)

-- And as I said, yes we can judge actions, but not someone's salvation

Well let me give another example. Rev 2:20 the Jezebel tht Christ speaks of here do you not think that it was the duty of the church and or the members to know what was going on and maybe just maybe think to themselves " this woman does not have that which she says she has (a relationship with Christ our lord = salvation) and so thus how can she teach us. And if she doesnt have this maybe we could try to teach her for she has much need to repent.

And if a person is a professing atheist, we don't have to judge, they have told us.

Ok let me give another example then. since this is one we see in the news quite often lately. Lets say i walk in on a priest who is molesting a small boy would I be wrong in assuming that this person is in need of a little taste of salvation bearing in mind the whole millstone thing our savior told us about hurting "one of these my little ones"

The conversation you entered into was about whether or not we can judge one's salvation--who is saved and who isn't. While of course, I may be taking you out of context, I am trying to place it in the conversation you entered into between myself and Micaiah.

Yes exactly Micaiah said " I can think of a range of scenarios where a person claims to be a Christian yet has some fundemental flaws in their theology and behaviour that would make you question their beliefs" to which I fully agree remember the jezebel and the priest im not say anything about whether they are worthy of salvation as we are none worthy, But I belive our works show whether or not we have the faith that we proclaim. If anyone understands what I'm saying help please or if I'm wrong, just slap me

 

[gluadys]

My friend we are all preachers ( all those within the faith of course)

-- And as I said, yes we can judge actions, but not someone's salvation

Well let me give another example.

snip

Yes exactly Micaiah said " I can think of a range of scenarios where a person claims to be a Christian yet has some fundemental flaws in their theology and behaviour that would make you question their beliefs" to which I fully agree remember the jezebel and the priest im not say anything about whether they are worthy of salvation as we are none worthy, But I belive our works show whether or not we have the faith that we proclaim. If anyone understands what I'm saying help please or if I'm wrong, just slap me

Actually, there is a slight but important difference between what you and herev have said (and the examples you gave), and what Micaiah said.

You, herev, Micaiah, and, I can add, myself, all agree that one's walk should match one's talk. If we profess to be Christian we should behave as Christians. And when our behaviour seriously contradicts our profession of faith (as in the examples you gave) people have a right to question whether our profession of faith is truthful.

But Micaiah, did not limit this perfectly reasonable observation to behaviour. He said: " I can think of a range of scenarios where a person claims to be a Christian yet has some fundemental flaws in their theology and behaviour that would make you question their beliefs." (Emphasis added.)

And that is where I have a problem. Christians of all sorts differ on many matters of theology. How can we say that differences of theology can be the basis on which to question their relationship to Christ? How can we say that different perspectives on whether to interpret scripture literally or non-literally can be a basis on which to question another's salvation?

The question of how old the earth is or whether humans or any species evolved is not a question of behaviour which contradicts a profession of faith. It is a question of science and of theology.

We can come to different conclusions based on our knowledge of science and our preferred interpretation of scripture. But we have no basis on which to doubt the faith or salvation of a professed Christian who comes to a different conclusion.

 

[herev]

1denom, while I appreciate your interest in apparently debunking or debating me on this topic, let's clarify a few things:

My friend we are all preachers ( all those within the faith of course)

I think you understand in context I was referring to my vocation, my job, my occupation.

Well let me give another example. Rev 2:20 the Jezebel tht Christ speaks of here do you not think that it was the duty of the church and or the members to know what was going on and maybe just maybe think to themselves " this woman does not have that which she says she has (a relationship with Christ our lord = salvation) and so thus how can she teach us. And if she doesnt have this maybe we could try to teach her for she has much need to repent.

I am not sure of what your arguement is. Here Jesus is the one judging. The only thing I have repeatedly said is that it is not our place to judge one's salvation--that belongs to Christ. And I seem to remember you agreeing to that.

Ok let me give another example then. since this is one we see in the news quite often lately. Lets say i walk in on a priest who is molesting a small boy would I be wrong in assuming that this person is in need of a little taste of salvation bearing in mind the whole millstone thing our savior told us about hurting "one of these my little ones"

Yes, you would be in error if you decide that you can ever judge one's salvation. Last I checked, that job is taken. You can and may (and should!) judge this man's actions, but whether or not he ends up in heaven (salvation) is not your place.

Yes exactly Micaiah said " I can think of a range of scenarios where a person claims to be a Christian yet has some fundemental flaws in their theology and behaviour that would make you question their beliefs" to which I fully agree remember the jezebel and the priest im not say anything about whether they are worthy of salvation as we are none worthy, But I belive our works show whether or not we have the faith that we proclaim. If anyone understands what I'm saying help please or if I'm wrong, just slap me

and again, if you judge their actions, and they proclaim to be a Christian, you are within the boundaries of Biblical grounds, but we are not allowed to judge one's salvation. The throne is already taken. Someone else already rests there. The job is full, and God is not taking applications. When it comes to self-proclaimed Christians, judge all the action you will, deciding who goes to heaven or not is out of bounds

The reason that this came up and the reason it is of such importance in this particular forum is that Theistic evolutionists often feel this is the first step in making such judgments against us. We often feel strict creationists are making such judgments against us--it is a thin line to cross from "you DO such and such and therefore must not be a real Christian" to "you BELIEVE such and such and thus must not be a real Christian." The latter is one we feel quite often here and is, in fact, one of the main reasons we debate. We don't need your (you generally, not individually) judgment on our salvation based on our interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2--we'll leave that to Jesus Christ

 

[1denomination]

judge all the action you will, deciding who goes to heaven or not is out of bounds

What we have here is failure to comunicate, I'm not judging who is worthy of salvation, But saying there are certain scenarios in which we christians must pass judgement on matters of faith,(whether the person we are talking to actually has it.)take the nicolations for example, from what I have been able to find about these people. The deeds that Christ hated so much, where a direct result of the flaws in there theology.(i e. Christ died for our sins and we believe that, so we are going to heaven and thus we can do what ever we want)

The reason that this came up and the reason it is of such importance in this particular forum is that Theistic evolutionists often feel this is the first step in making such judgments against us. We often feel strict creationists are making such judgments against us--it is a thin line to cross from "you DO such and such and therefore must not be a real Christian" to "you BELIEVE such and such and thus must not be a real Christian." The latter is one we feel quite often here and is, in fact, one of the main reasons we debate. We don't need your (you generally, not individually) judgment on our salvation based on our interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2--we'll leave that to Jesus Christ

Now as for you TE's and your theology, I in no way think that it is one of the scenarios of which we have so passionately debated, in fact although I think your theology has a little bit to much of the world in it I can understand where you draw your conclusions from. although I think the age of the world as very little importance in the kingdom of heaven. May God bless you

 

[herev]

ok....

What we have here is failure to comunicate,

that much is certain

I'm not judging who is worthy of salvation, But saying there are certain scenarios in which we christians must pass judgement on matters of faith,(whether the person we are talking to actually has it.)

I cannot see the difference. If one doesn't have faith, they don't have salvation, so if you judge thier faith (something that DOES happen around here), you judge their salvation.

take the nicolations for example, from what I have been able to find about these people. The deeds that Christ hated so much, where a direct result of the flaws in there theology.(i e. Christ died for our sins and we believe that, so we are going to heaven and thus we can do what ever we want)

The nicolations were much like the gnostics (probably a precursor). I freely judge their theological insights and their doctrine, but I do not judge whether or not they go to heaven--not in my job description.

Now as for you TE's and your theology, I in no way think that it is one of the scenarios of which we have so passionately debated,

But many have been debating exactly that, hence the original conversation with Micaiah, who has the full history here

in fact although I think your theology has a little bit to much of the world in it

opinoin noted and filed

I can understand where you draw your conclusions from.

thanks for that

although I think the age of the world as very little importance in the kingdom of heaven.

which is and has been my major point since I first began debating here

May God bless you

and you as well

 

[1denomination]

Ok Im back once again to disscuss this. I hope and pray for the last time, from here we will just let the lord give us understanding.

On the matter of judging, it has been my point and remains to be, that we as christians ,in an effort to protect ourselves and the body, have the charge to look out for the wolf in sheeps clothing.(i. e. those who profess to be of the faith yet arent). Now I have prayed and studied about this issue, and a thought came to me last night. Now here it is, You Herev as stated earlier in this disscussion are a preacher I'm assuming a pastor and as such you are the shepperd of a flock (the protecter)And as such if a person, lets just say the jezebel I spoke of, came to you wanting to speak(I.E. teach or give a word from god) it would be you job examine her actions and determine if she had the faith( faith as you said earlier = salvation) she proclaimed, If you didnt and you let her teach and lead your flock astray you would be held accountable. now I know you are going to say that we can judge actions but not salvation but my friend our actions are a testement to our salvation.If we have not works then whe have not faith, and if we have not faith we have no salvation.I find it hard to belive that you have never found yourself in a postion were you needed to witness to someone(outside of your church building) who you knew were lost before they ever told you they were or weren't. It's what we as christians are supposed to do. I'm not saying who will go to heaven or hell, the bible tells me who will, those who accept christ as their savior, and by their fruits I will know them. I dont know about you but I want to know them you know the bible say it is only the believers who have wisdom I sure like to be taught by wise people. Now how will I know who is wise unless I am able to disern who is of the faith and who isnt.

Now as for your theology, My brother I pray that you seek god in it and not the the opinion of the scientist of our world. I was reading last night in the book of James, lets just say the lord frowns upon things of this world and to me evoultion is a theory of this world a lie brought forth from the deciever for far to many people have been led astray to the point of even denying god even exists,now my friend if something has this kind of impact it can in no way be of god, For a good tree bears not bad fruit, and like wise a bad tree bears not good fruit. but whatever the case maybe all I ask is that you let the holy spirt be your guide and dont let evoultion lead you astray for no matter how he chose to create the earth god is still the alpha and omega .May god truly bless you I shall be praying for you.

 

[Vance]

Now as for your theology, My brother I pray that you seek god in it and not the the opinion of the scientist of our world.

. . . but whatever the case maybe all I ask is that you let the holy spirt be your guide and dont let evoultion lead you astray . . .

See, this is exactly the type of presumptuous, insulting comment that I am talking about in the other thread. This is not conducive to the discussion in the least. The gall to presume that Herev, a Man of God, is not seeking God, is not being led of the Spirit, and is simply accepting the opinion of the scientists of our world is just amazing.

I was reading last night in the book of James, lets just say the lord frowns upon things of this world and to me evoultion is a theory of this world a lie brought forth from the deciever for far to many people have been led astray to the point of even denying god even exists,now my friend if something has this kind of impact it can in no way be of god, For a good tree bears not bad fruit, and like wise a bad tree bears not good fruit.

So, if I were to present to you a myriad of examples that YEC'ism had caused Christians to doubt their faith and was a major influence in leaving Christianity, and showed you many other examples where non-Christians had resisted the Gospel message because they associated Christianity with a belief in a young earth and no evolution, would you say those were pretty good examples of "bad fruit", thus proving that YEC'ism was a "bad tree"?

 

[1denomination]

See, this is exactly the type of presumptuous, insulting comment that I am talking about in the other thread. This is not conducive to the discussion in the least. The gall to presume that Herev, a Man of God, is not seeking God, is not being led of the Spirit, and is simply accepting the opinion of the scientists of our world is just amazing.

Vance my friend, Earlier there was a point raised that I thought that because of his theology he did not have salvation. which was in no way what I think. So I was trying to state my opinion on it In that if the spirit allows him to be comfortable with his theology then fine. thats all we can do as christians(what the spirit allows, as long as we are listening to the spirit) and as long as he is seeking the face of god and his fruit bear that I would never pass any such judgement againt my brother. Which of course I'm sure he is not woried about my judgement if He is seeking the lords face. but my post was done out of love for herev, Now I only wish your post was done out of love for me.

So, if I were to present to you a myriad of examples that YEC'ism had caused Christians to doubt their faith and was a major influence in leaving Christianity, and showed you many other examples where non-Christians had resisted the Gospel message because they associated Christianity with a belief in a young earth and no evolution, would you say those were pretty good examples of "bad fruit", thus proving that YEC'ism was a "bad tree"?

No, I would only see it as how evolution has further poisoned the minds of the world. And I'm sure you can see how I could draw that conclusion. God bless

 

[1denomination]

This intended for Herev.
My brother judging by vance's latest post I fear I may have offended you. If so I want to apologize. It was in no way my intent and if I have, I ask for your forgiveness, I have very much enjoyed our debate and look forward to more healthy debates in the future, through which we may both be sharpened. God bless.