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Great post Torah!!
I find history to be a fascinating accompaniment to scripture to allow us to see not only prophesy come to life but to provide context.
You're proving my point crib. You're using, and rightfully so, deductive reasoning to prove that marriage existed in Eden, even though scripture doesn't "spell it out" i.e. "And God gave Eve to Adam as his wife and thus they were married..."Dude, God commanded marriage in the DNA of man with these words.......(I wish the same was done with the sabbath.)
Gen 2:24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Jesus references these exact word in Genesis Chapter 2 confirming marriage as a creation ordinance
Mat 19:4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mat 19:6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mat 19:7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Jesus words is EVIDENCE that the divorce commandment was not given at creation, but first given to Moses.
Are there other commandments we can say was first given at Sinai?
What theories are out there about the law before Sinai?
Jesus prove in other text that Angels dont marry so, Is that not EVIDENCE of marriage beginning with Adam and Eve?
This is where it's gonna get sticky for us. You think that God has a seperate set of rules for "christians". The first Christians were Jews. They never stopped keeping the ten commandments. You assume that because they didn't spell it out, that that must mean they didn't teach it at all. I don't make that assumption. I believe they knew that the law was unchangeable, and that God didn't put the 4th commandment in with the other ten, just for it to be excused away. Paul preaching in the synagogues to the gentiles, on the sabbath proves that somehow the gentiles knew the sabbath was a holy day. Add to that God saying that we will keep the sabbath in the new earth, and the blessing he pronounced to the gentiles in Isa, and you have a solid case, from the bible in regards to sabbath keeping.What God requires of Christian is clearly written and told by many apostles in the scriptures. Sabbathkeeping was not one of them. Jesus tapped Peter to feed it, Stephen to die preaching it and Paul as an Apostle to the Gentiles to teach doctrines and James and John bares witness by letters.
Torah, thank you for participating in this thread.
Ive only read and looked into the part above so far. As you know we're looking for scriptual EVIDENCE of a CREATION INSTITUTED SABBATH.
You made two points...God set time in motion from evening, to morning then, the first day end at evening.
"mow`ed" meaning "seasons" as used in Gen 1:14. The same word is used for feast in 23 texts in the Entire Bible but Gen 1:14 is clearly not one of them.
It seems clear that when the sun and moon was set in thier places by God, it was to govern times, days, months, and "seasons," meaning the atmosphere that comes 4 times of a year.
But how did the Greek / Gentiles change it to Sunday? Just look at History!
At the end of the book of Acts we are left with a picture of Christianity still in the cradle of Judaism, still a part of Judaism, a sect within it. Paul is left as a prisoner in the city of Rome and he is ministering to the believers in Rome. It is about the year 65 AD. Within two years, Paul goes to meet the Master when he is beheaded by Emperor Nero. A short time later, Peter too finds martyrdom in Rome when Nero has him crucified. Nero then added to his infamy by launching a massive military campaign against the Jewish state. He sent the dreaded 10th legion under the famous general Vespasian.
After Nero's death and Vespasian was made Emperor, his son Titus carried on the war by bringing the Roman army against Jerusalem.
The armies came and the believers fled. The city of Jerusalem was destroyed, the Temple was burned and the Jewish believers in Judea and Jerusalem either fled in exile to Transjordan or were carried off in captivity and sold as slaves along with their Jewish brothers and sisters.
The Church that was the Assembly of the Book of Acts, the Assembly of the Apostles, under James the Righteous ceased to be.
Previously, when questions of law and practice, or disputes of theology had arisen, we sent to Jerusalem to find a decision from the Apostles, the disciples and the elders at Jerusalem. After 70 there is no Jerusalem. There is no Jerusalem church. There is no Authority. No one is there to answer our questions.
Remember, there was still no New Testament for us to turn to. The Gospels had just been or were still being written. Paul's letters had not been compiled yet.John's epistles were not even written yet. Imagine our situation. What to do do?
Whoa, look what time it is, phew...we started at creation and walked right off the pages of the bible.
That's false, you're tilting the table over to make your point Stryder. You want to be correct that marriage is not spelled out in creation.You're proving my point crib. You're using, and rightfully so, deductive reasoning to prove that marriage existed in Eden, even though scripture doesn't "spell it out" i.e. "And God gave Eve to Adam as his wife and thus they were married..."
You're revealing how your truth is found by human reasoning and what is written can be ignored.The same way you can see the marriage was obviously in eden is the same way we see the sabbath there. The seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God. It isn't about an institution, it simply is what it is. By nature the 7th day is the sabbath, that's just how it is.
What you and I reasonably deduce does not matter. What matters is, every word from the mouth of God.This is where it's gonna get sticky for us. You think that God has a seperate set of rules for "christians". The first Christians were Jews. They never stopped keeping the ten commandments. You assume that because they didn't spell it out, that that must mean they didn't teach it at all.
We've looked into a few arguments and just like marriage you know there is scripture to support it. The fact that you can find once sentence about Keeping the Sabbath in creation is why you're trying to put a magnifying glass to question marriage.I don't make that assumption. I believe they knew that the law was unchangeable, and that God didn't put the 4th commandment in with the other ten, just for it to be excused away.
Paul preaching in the synagogues to the gentiles, on the sabbath proves that somehow the gentiles knew the sabbath was a holy day.
Add to that God saying that we will keep the sabbath in the new earth, and the blessing he pronounced to the gentiles in Isa, and you have a solid case, from the bible in regards to sabbath keeping.
Torah is making a firm argument only based on a definition of a word "seasons" being a factor even before humanity or any living things was on earth.
My possition is that what happend on the 3rd of day of creation seem to explain the purpose of the sun and moon being the two great lights put in place to rule of the order of time. "Seasons" explained in most english bibles as a divison of times in a year.
Gen 1:14¶And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
Here's EVIDENCE of what God meant about the seasons that He set in place at creation.
Gen 8:22While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Most of the European nations divide the year into four distinct parts, called quarters or seasons; but there are six divisions in the text, which obtained in Palestine among the Hebrews, and exist among the Arabs to the present day. According to this gracious promise, the heavenly bodies have preserved their courses, the seasons their successions, and the earth its increase for the use of man.
Respectfully, I look forward to summertime.Dear sir! If one word from the Creator will not convince you that his Moedim / festivals are not first and foremost part of his creative order. Then a thousand words will not convince you.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the [Torah] / law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
Shalom Ahlaychem
The truth about marriage is in black and white, not in deductive reasoning because creation Sabbath does not have one sentence to say that God commanded it.Not wanting to seem like I'm taking sides against you Crib but I had to comment on the marraige analogy you and Stryder were discussing.
You say that becasue there is lots of verses that support man and woman being created for each other and commanded to procreate, that it assumes marriage. I couldn't help but think that all the verses you quoted to show marraige between a man and a woman could equally apply to men and women living together and not joined in marraige.
The Bible doesn't speak to the 'marraige' of Adam and Eve, we assume it. The assumption is solid because of the other scripture evidence we have and becasue we know the Fathers character and what He expects from His people... the seventh Commandment is key in this understanding of what He would have meant when He refered to the woman as a helpmate.
If I'm not mistaken, a man is married when a preacher "repeats what is said in Gen 2...... "I now pronounce you man and wife" not I now pronounce you married".
Gen 2:24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Does the scripture calls Eve Adam's wife or not? Well there is no assumption on my part, I believe what's written.
TIME IS IMPLIED BEFORE THE 7th DAY
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
(Timeline important)
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
(Animals formed from the ground as man, they recieve no "breathe of life" to make them live".)
Gen 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
(The institution of mar... man and wify)
We should accept creation's story by understanding what is written..
That's false, you're tilting the table over to make your point Stryder. You want to be correct that marriage is not spelled out in creation.
Rightly dividing the word should not "deductively reason out" anything that is written in the word.
The bible explains how God first brought animals to Adam looking for a mate for him.
The bible explains how two becomes one as if God joins them tegether.
The bible explains God's creation decree that man and woman is to multiply to populate the earth.
Need I say more about God's written plan for man and woman?(there's more)
The plan for keeping the Sabbath day Holy has no text I can post, it's not seen until Ex16.
The definition of "blessed" and "sanctified" does not of itself command humanty to do anything unless you take it's out of context and add words that God never said. Why should we consider God commanding men in text that tells us about what God created before entering into His rest?
The words "Sabbath day" does not come up until Ex16.
The first seven days of creation only tell us about what God Has done and nothing more is added. Man only fits in Gen 1-2:3 as His creation not His comrade. God is Spirit man is dirt....Hello
From Gen 2:4 on, the bible begins to tell us about God's plans for all His creation and His purpose for man. Why should I hear what God is commanding from another mouth but the writer of Genesis?
Gen2:4 take us back into God's creation days and explain Who (just 2people), how(from dirt), when(6th day) and what His creation commandments to man was. (treeofG&E) The bible in Genesis tells us why man was created,(keep garden) what man should eat,(veggie) what man should do(name all animals, have dominion of all creation)
Keeping the Sabbath does not come up as a creation commandment. (we dont rub it in your faces)
You're revealing how your truth is found by human reasoning and what is written can be ignored.
What you and I reasonably deduce does not matter. What matters is, every word from the mouth of God.
The apostles do spell it out, they do teach it ....some people dont care to follow what's written.
Rather than apply it's teaching to understanding, they apply "words" to reasoning what they want to hear.
Act 15 does show us what was taught to the Gentiles also the Epistles of Paul to Gentile nations prove what was taught to Gentiles.
We've looked into a few arguments and just like marriage you know there is scripture to support it. The fact that you can find once sentence about Keeping the Sabbath in creation is why you're trying to put a magnifying glass to question marriage.
Are you saying that you don't believe the literal six day creation? It would seem, from your above comments that you put greater time between each 'day' of the creation week.
Also your comment on animals not having the breath of life given to then doesn't make sense. God may have given us a greater intellect than the animal but we are all mortal creatures that live and die the same way. The Bible also refers to the animals as 'souls', so I don't distinguish the difference...
Bible Lexicon does a good job of settling this issue, but let's see whatelse you might find.Actually Crib, the same word is used in Hebrew (H802) for wife in the quotes above is used in verses 22 and 23 that means woman. The term wife was a translational assumption. So there is no direct evidence of Adam and Eve being married.
Are you saying that you don't believe the literal six day creation? It would seem, from your above comments that you put greater time between each 'day' of the creation week.
The breathe of God in man is of God's eternal spirit. When a man dies, the breathe(spirit of the man) goes back to God.Also your comment on animals not having the breath of life given to then doesn't make sense. God may have given us a greater intellect than the animal but we are all mortal creatures that live and die the same way. The Bible also refers to the animals as 'souls', so I don't distinguish the difference...
This raises an interesting point. Do Adventists have to believe in a literal 6 day creation? I would think not, but I guess that first Sabbath on day 7 doesn't have the same meaning otherwise.
The breathe of God in man is of God's eternal spirit. When a man dies, the breathe(spirit of the man) goes back to God.
Animals are of the earth and return to the earth.
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