Evidence for Christianity??

[ExodusMe]

Nonsense, in its entirety.

There's no reason to label belief in a god to be properly basic.

I just did.

Belief in God is not inferred from other beliefs. It is occasioned by a sense implanted by God called the sense of the divine.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I just did.

Belief in God is not inferred from other beliefs. It is occasioned by a sense implanted by God called the sense of the divine.

And yet, not everyone believes in your god, or is even aware of his existence.

How can that be the case if god implants that sense in everyone?

 

[ExodusMe]

And yet, not everyone believes in your god, or is even aware of his existence.

How can that be the case if god implants that sense in everyone?

it is damaged from sin. Repent and God can regenerate you

 

[Dave Ellis]

it is damaged from sin. Repent and God can regenerate you

What's damaged from sin, and what does that have to do with my point?

You haven't addressed the fact that many people haven't even heard of your god. That would seem to negate your argument that god is a properly basic belief

 

[ExodusMe]

What's damaged from sin, and what does that have to do with my point?

You haven't addressed the fact that many people haven't even heard of your god. That would seem to negate your argument that god is a properly basic belief

your sense of the divine is damaged by sin. That is why you believe atheism.

>95% of the world believes in a god. Not sure how you arrive at the thought that nobody believes in God.

The sense of the divine provides basis for belief in God but specific Christian truths are instigated in regenerated believers by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

If someone asks a general question, viz., "Is there evidence for Christianity?" my reply would be that it depends on the specifics. For example, is there evidence that the disciples lived, the answer is, yes. Is there evidence that a historical Jesus lived, the answer is also yes. There are various kinds of evidence in the Bible that support its historicity. However, many people who ask this question want to know if there is enough evidence to warrant belief in Christianity as a religion. For example, is there evidence that the God of the Bible exists; or is there evidence for the resurrection; or is there evidence that Jesus actually performed miracles, etc.

Before going on let's examine briefly some views on faith. Some Christians believe that one's faith should be backed up with good reasons or good evidence. These Christians give logical arguments for the existence of God, and for the physical resurrection of Christ. Dr. William Lane Craig is a Christian who happens to also be a (analytic) philosopher and a Christian apologist. Dr. Craig is an example of someone who gives arguments defending the Christian faith. Thus, people like Dr. Craig believe that one's faith is supported by good reasons.

There are also those within Christianity who believe that faith in itself is enough, i.e., one doesn't need good reasons or good evidence to support their faith. Many Christians believe that this kind of faith is what's central to their belief. Therefore, it's not a matter of having good arguments to support one's belief, it's a matter of exercising one's faith, or trusting in God or Christ. When exercising just faith in Christ one's mind is illumined to the truth by the Holy Spirit.

I will start with this post first as a kind of introduction to what follows.

We have been programmed how to think by social pressures and influences. Our psychological mechanisms prevent us from forming "unpopular" thoughts almost immediately, because it can be dangerous to our well-being.

Is it logical to believe that a finite creature can measure, and perceive something that is infinite? It shouldn't be, but our ego tells us it is possible, and ignores the fact that Something like an Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient God of gods would fail to be unperceivable in some ways even to the gods! Indeed, in the Apocrypha, the archons, principalities, angels and powers also call the Lord of Spirits (God of gods) the "[Great] Invisible Spirit."

Yet, we use metrics to determine the immeasurable - because we are deceiving ourselves, and see no issue with it.

Now, I am not saying that we should operate with no evidence at all; God didn't make us to be blindly faithful. He gave us reasoning minds and intellect to come to a conclusion based on our experiences. The bible is full of charges to us by God to use our "head," and really think about what we are doing. We don't appreciate it, nor do we see it as profitable.

For example, God told the Israelites that they would have HIM as their God - they wanted to be like the world, and have an imperfect, man king as their representative. (How did that work out?) Still, God indulged our sophomoric cries to Him so that we would learn from those mistakes.

There is plenty of evidence to make an informed and astute decision about this world, the world beyond this world, and the compositions thereof - including The Creator. However, we are in enmity between what is right, and what is acceptable. Spirituality is an upward battle for carnal entities; which is why our success in overseeing headships of religion are abysmal at best.

So, it all comes down to blinding ourselves. We know in our second brain (heart) what is right and wrong; we erroneously use our primary brain to rationalize everything according to our paradigms and circumstances. I was never forced to learn about God. I wasn't exposed to any one religion; in fact, I have been exposed to many religions. I didn't entertain, and then accept "Christianity" until after I finished University - a stark contrast to the cliche that religious folks are unintelligent, sheltered and unworldly in thought. He actually gave me "proof," which I consider with hindsight a bitter-sweet thing: I have luxury of denying Him, His existence and the existence of the entire creation (including things considered ridiculous and fantastical.) But, I had to make a mental submission, and decision to realize that my alleged "intelligent" brain absolutely has no idea of the wonders and elements that make up existence. (This is another cliche usually associated with mystics and gnostics: to abandon everything you know in order to know.)


It depends on you. God - the real God of gods - won't force you to believe in Him. He, and the entities that worship Him are gentlepersons. That is why demons/gods invade, while one has to make a conscious choice to let God and His Choir in their life.

 

[Dave Ellis]

your sense of the divine is damaged by sin. That is why you believe atheism.

>95% of the world believes in a god. Not sure how you arrive at the thought that nobody believes in God.

The sense of the divine provides basis for belief in God but specific Christian truths are instigated in regenerated believers by the Holy Spirit.

That makes no sense, if the human sense of the divine has been damaged by sin, then why do some believe, and others don't? If all humans are sinners, wouldn't everyone have a damaged sense of the divine?

Secondly, less than 95% of the world believe in a god. However even if I grant you that figure, only 2.2 billion people believe in your god, out of 7.5 billion. That accounts for about 29% of the global population, however many of those self identified Christians would have very different ideas about what god is than you do. So, even that number is certainly inflated.

This doesn't equate to a properly basic belief.

 

[ExodusMe]

That makes no sense, if the human sense of the divine has been damaged by sin, then why do some believe, and others don't? If all humans are sinners, wouldn't everyone have a damaged sense of the divine?

Secondly, less than 95% of the world believe in a god. However even if I grant you that figure, only 2.2 billion people believe in your god, out of 7.5 billion. That accounts for about 29% of the global population, however many of those self identified Christians would have very different ideas about what god is than you do. So, even that number is certainly inflated.

This doesn't equate to a properly basic belief.

the only requirement for a belief to be properly basic is for it to not be inferred from other beliefs.

Sin accounts for the reason why people have varying false beliefs about God. Sin damages the sense of the divine and causes false beliefs to be made (similar to damaged eye sight).

I am not stating that the sense of the divine produces belief in Christianity, but general beliefs regarding God (i.e. God made the world, God can hear my prayers, etc...)

 

[Dave Ellis]

the only requirement for a belief to be properly basic is for it to not be inferred from other beliefs.

However any time I've argued with a christian they've used many arguments (i.e. argument from design, fine tuning, etc) in order to infer the existence of a god. I don't see how you start believing in a god, much less your god without some other pre-existing belief.

Secondly, even if you can given a good reason why your belief is properly basic, that doesn't mean the belief is correct.

Sin accounts for the reason why people have varying false beliefs about God. Sin damages the sense of the divine and causes false beliefs to be made (similar to damaged eye sight).

I am not stating that the sense of the divine produces belief in Christianity, but general beliefs regarding God (i.e. God made the world, God can hear my prayers, etc...)

So how do you know you have the right belief about god? Assuming you're also a sinner, you could be completely mistaken and not know it.

 

[Foxfyre]

That is ridiculous.

I have never experienced jumping from a height higher then 3m.
But I don't need "faith" to know and understand that jumping from a 100m building, will result in certain death.

But if you have never experienced a fall or witnessed one, how would you know?

 

[Foxfyre]

Which doesn´t help with the question whether the testimony is reliable and/or accurate, at all.

Whether testimony is reliable or accurate is a separate discussion. Testimony of what a person hears, sees, touches, experiences is evidence whether or not you believe the person giving the testimony.

This thread is about whether there is evidence for Christianity. The testimony of some 2 billion people now living not to mention all those no longer living who have testified is indeed evidence whether or not you believe any of them.

 

[Foxfyre]

Your testimony is noted. The question is: How can we verify that it´s accurate?

This has nothing to do with my preferences.

Your experience isn´t in doubt. Your interpretation is.
I´m not sure why you brought up the entire court/jury thing when in fact you aren´t willing to have your claims put to scrutinity.

If you wish for me to respond to your posts, please leave my post intact in its full context. I understand a lot of you like to do this chopped up post thing but I don't like reading them, responding to them, and they are boring as heck. Thanks for understanding.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But if you have never experienced a fall or witnessed one, how would you know?

v = sqrt(2gh)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Whether testimony is reliable or accurate is a separate discussion. Testimony of what a person hears, sees, touches, experiences is evidence whether or not you believe the person giving the testimony.

This thread is about whether there is evidence for Christianity. The testimony of some 2 billion people now living not to mention all those no longer living who have testified is indeed evidence whether or not you believe any of them.

And it is very poor evidence since 2/3 of the world's population has testimony to the contrary. Since you appear to be trying to run a numbers game you lose.

 

[Foxfyre]

And therefore, the billions of people that have their own personal testimonies, that disagree with you, are just as valid as yours.

There aren't any people, let alone billions of them, who have not had the Christian experience who are in any position to give a different experience.

If ten people are on the street and five people hear a shot being fired and the other five don't hear the shot, there is a problem.

But if five people hear a shot and the other five were not close enough to hear the shot, the five who did not hear it are in no position to dispute the testimony of the five who did.

If you have never tasted strawberry, you have absolutely no frame of reference to know what tasting strawberry is like.

 

[Foxfyre]

Even if that were the case, you don't have unimpeachable testimony though, not even close to it.

So why go down this line of argument?

Because the thesis of the thread asks for evidence of Christianity. Testimony of the Christian experience is very much evidence whether you believe it or not.

 

[Foxfyre]

And it is very poor evidence since 2/3 of the world's population has testimony to the contrary. Since you appear to be trying to run a numbers game you lose.

Do they? If 2/3rds of the world have never tasted strawberry, does that mean that they can then say that the 1/3rd who have tasted strawberry are not credible as having had that experience?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do they? If 2/3rds of the world have never tasted strawberry, does that mean that they can then say that the 1/3rd who have tasted strawberry are not credible as having had that experience?

But they believe that they have "tasted a strawberry" just as you have that belief.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Because the thesis of the thread asks for evidence of Christianity. Testimony of the Christian experience is very much evidence whether you believe it or not.

Testimony from a bunch of people living 2000 years after the events in question is absolutely meaningless.

 

[bhsmte]

There aren't any people, let alone billions of them, who have not had the Christian experience who are in any position to give a different experience.

If ten people are on the street and five people hear a shot being fired and the other five don't hear the shot, there is a problem.

But if five people hear a shot and the other five were not close enough to hear the shot, the five who did not hear it are in no position to dispute the testimony of the five who did.

If you have never tasted strawberry, you have absolutely no frame of reference to know what tasting strawberry is like.

What are you talking about? 2/3 of the world's population, have non Christian faith beliefs and they claim their experiences, are the correct ones, just like you.

The rest of your post, is irrelevant.